And I completely disagree with you on most of these issues. For me, there are not 2 sides, there are many. I don't want to pull out, and I don't want to stay. Neither help me or mine, except the "leave" pile gets friends and family members out of immediate harms way (and lets them start working and paying their mortgages again, and see their kids and wives, and mow their own lawn, and lead regular lives again. You know, the American Dream that none of them are currently living (but allowing the rest of us to live?).
As for a "declaration of war" against these other countries, I ask you "How friggin stupid are you?". That is not going to help us at all, unless you truly want us to be at war against them all, and have every able-bodied man and woman in America under arms and actively fighting. What the fuck has Palestine actually ever done to hurt us? Sure, they are aholes. And they support terrorists. But the actual damage they do is negligible. How many lives and how much money have they actually costs us? And how do those numbers compare to, say, second hand smoke? Or local street gangs in Philadelphia? Or even trench-coat wearing teenagers in Colorado? Just as I disagree with you that the entire population of American should be under arms, I don't think whole countries are our problem. The leadership in some countries are a problem. Specific groups within a country are a problem. A minority of people in a given population are a problem. And maybe even many people in those populations support the bad guys, but for the most part are not "militant" in that support. Why bring all of them into the fight? Why not apply the good military tactics I know you know, and solve these personnel issues with as small an impact as possible. I would much rather pit our best, smallest, meanest military units against their specific bad guys, than open up general hostilities. If _they_ decide as a country to declare war against us, then that is on their head, but we should not open that ball unless we have a really good reason. I don't think we should have ever gone into Iraq. I said it at the time. Repeatedly. The reasons we went in, I believe, were not honest. I truly believe there were people in our government and in our power structures who had reasons other than national defense (or any national interests) who led us into that war. For their own personal interests and gains. Once we had gone in, though, I agreed with you, we needed to BREAK SHIT, destroy the opposition, and GET THE FUCK OUT. This was not a war of occupation. We don't want that sand. We just wanted the bad people there to stop being bad. Once we accomplished that, and even before the fires had been put down, we should have been back out. With that in mind, and with the "success" we have seen so far in Iraq, and with no end or success in sight anywhere on my horizon, why again are we still tilting at this windmill? Do you actually see "success" in our future, here? What is "success", as you define it? And when do you see us getting there? And what will the final cost be? How many more lives need to be put on lost, wrecked, or put on hold to "avange" those already lost? Since we started talking seriously about "pulling out", more men have died than had died before that time. Is that the right move? What if we never "win" there? Then how high was the cost? I don't think any of this should have risen to the level of "war", to tell the truth. The aftermath of 9/11 for me required police actions, covert spy shit or special force responses, not war. The actions we took in Afghanistan were correct, until the politicians got involved, and pulled the troops out in large numbers, and worse, made political decisions to leave bad people in place, even though we knew they were killing Americans. Even the initial attack on Iraq was needed, that should have been the end of it, in my mind. But after we smashed them, and even before we found Saddam, we should have pulled back out and left. And when Saddam stood back up, smash him again. Costs money, but we have that. And it would have used our strengths against his weaknesses. We have no business still being in Iraq, as there is nothing there for us. It does not help our country at all by still being in Iraq 5 years later, in my mind. Feeling less for people who haven't worn the uniform is your right. But, you are a jerk (and you know it). There are many people who _cannot_, who would if they could, and who do try to contribute in other ways. And truthfully, if we did what you asked, and moved everyone into the military, right now, the country would fall apart, go broke, and what would it all have been for, again? FWIW I think mandatory military service is a _great_ idea, have been a proponent since I was a teenager, but today you would never get it passed, since the general public does not trust the government to use those resources well (or even in the interest of the country, and not for their personal gain) And, to tell the truth, we are not at war. If we were at war, I believe you would see these things happening. Because I don't think the underlying morals and beliefs of America has changed. As evidenced by the support for Bush and enlistment rates after 9/11. We are in a limited police action, and truly not a very hot one. There is no actual danger to America in any of this, other than a few silly, futile terror attacks that really should accomplish nothing. The American men and women that are dying are fighting for the birth of an Iraqi nation that the Iraqis may not actually want. And it is unclear (in my mind it is clear, but I am willing to admit that is just my feeling) that we can impose a new government on them. Where are the Taliban coming back? In Iraq? Oh, no, I remember. They are coming back in Afghanistan (and Pakistan), places we greatly reduced troop levels in order to move them to Iraq. I agree with you, we should smash them down again whenever they pop their heads up. A global game of "whack a mole". And I bet an overwhelming number of the voting public would STILL, TODAY, go along with that idea. Even with the feeling of betrayal by and disappointment in their government, and the anger at the "waste" they see in the sacrifice being made by our military. But we aren't being asked to make a surge in Afghanistan. We aren't recruiting for people to go to Afghanistan, and beat the Taliban back down. I know you have strong feelings on this, and I believe you have earned those feelings. But can you really tell me you think things are going well, anywhere, currently? And do you truly believe the insurgents in Iraq, the Taliban as it exists, or even these countries you want to declare war on are imminent, dangerous threats to America or a great many Americans? Not coherent thoughts, I admit, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above. On 9/13/07, Loathe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have very strong feelings on this issue and I do tend to let them run > things sometimes. > > My arguments, what arguments are to be made? It seems there are two sides. > Those that want out and those that want to stay. I honestly consider it > offensive and unpatriotic to want to pull out now. I find there to be > something deficient in people that can think this way. My point is I don't > care about the arguments for or against. I care that I killed people. That > my friends have died and been wounded. The motivations at this point mean > little to me. > > Why be civil? We're talking about war. Not a tea party. How would I run > things? > > Define who our enemies are. In my view that would currently include Iran, > Syria, some of Lebanon, some of Pakistan, Palestine, and various > non-governmental terror groups. > > State in a declaration of war the names of the nations and organizations we > are fighting. That way we know who our targets are, and our goal becomes > dismantling those governments and organizations to the point that they can > no longer operate. > > Begin drafting all males 18-30 let's say. Yes, I mean all of them. 2 years > out of school isn't going to hurt you in the long run, unless you're killed > or wounded. > > Identify strategic resources, oil, steel and so forth. Begin rationing and > turn in support of the war effort. > > Establish headquarters in Saudi, Afghanistan and Iraq where you will marshal > troops and handle logistics. > > Use our conventional first strike capabilities to destroy the infrastructure > of the nations and groups involved. > > Invade ALL locations where the nations and organizations are operating. > > Begin stability and security operations - Marshall plan 2 > > Open large scale reeducation camps across the middle east. > > That's how a nation would go to war. > > Now the stuff you don't want to hear. I think less of men that haven't worn > the uniform, especially in time of war. We have this great nation, all > these freedoms and rights, but no one wants to sacrifice to earn it anymore. > Whether you're talking about our immigration arguments, or the common > citizen. Our country is full of weak people that want everything handed to > them, and don't want to ever face adversity. In the days after Sept. 11th > this country rallied, but even then you could see that it was BS. > > 3000 dead, and we let the Taliban start coming back? > > How many attacks and cease fire violations should we have allowed the Iraqis > to carry out before we did something? > > I flip out, I'm nuts, blah blah blah. > > When it comes right down to it my response (no retreat, no surrender) is an > emotional one. Why did I go there and do what I did if the civilians are > only going to change their minds now? If these wars are illegal, am I a war > criminal? If we don't win what does that make me? > > So yes, this is an emotional, personal argument. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Get the answers you are looking for on the ColdFusion Labs Forum direct from active programmers and developers. http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/categories.cfm?forumid-72&catid=648 Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/message.cfm/messageid:242361 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Community/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.5
