I think that the following discussion just proved my point ! THE MESSAGE IS IMPORTANT the details are pointless. Is religion for religion itself or does it have a another purpose ? Eat pork, don't eat pork, shave your head, don't shave your beard, do the sabbath, or don't eat meat on Fridays, Go to church, don't go to church, circumcize, go to confession, tear you clothes. The problem is when someone believe in the superiority of his religion/folklore. If the message becomes more important then the laws(customs/etc....), then the IMPORTANT AND FUNDEMENTAL LAWS will be applied as a logical result.
-----Message d'origine----- De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Envoyé : Monday, April 15, 2002 9:09 AM À : CF-Community Objet : Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) I'm sure I can research and answer your question easily, but it does not avoid the point that if you are a Christian you are not a Pagan and a Christian is not a Jew either. > Christmas is a co-opted pagan holiday, as is Easter (the birth of Christ was > probably in the spring, in fact, not the winter). But neither of these > holidays are "based" on pagan rituals. Beyond that, what Christian practices > are exact copies of or based on pagan practices? > > H. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:12 PM > To: CF-Community > Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > I'm going to do this logically so as not to insult anyone or to do as little > as possible. > Many Christian practices are exact copies or based on Pagan practices. By > that logic, you are a Pagan Christian or messianic Pagan. If you say that > you are not a Pagan but are instead a Christian you will be proving my > point. > > > Perspectives are wonderful, but perspectives don't change the logic. You > may > > not like a messanic Jew calling himself a Jew, but that doesn't stop him > > from being a Jew. > > > > H. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Judith Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:32 PM > > To: CF-Community > > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > But not from the Jewish perspective. (See my response to you Re: Jesus and > > bringing world peace). > > > > Aren't perspectives wonderful? > > > > Judith > > > > >The comparison is faulty because unlike, Wiccans, say, the basis for > > believe > > >in Christ is based on a Jewish foundation. As a Christian, we believe > that > > >all of Israel's history that proceeded the birth of Christ, foretold and > > >prepared the way for Christ. From a Christian perspective, there is no > > >significant break between the Jewish religion and Christianity. You can't > > >have Christianity without Judaism. So, to be a Jew and become a follower > > of > > >Christ would not be a stretch at all and would not break faith with your > > >heritage. It would magnify and enhance your heritage. So there is no > > >contradiction (or an oxymoron) in the phrase messianic Jew. > > > > > >H. > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Michael Dinowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:47 AM > > >To: CF-Community > > >Subject: Re: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > >So why are there no messianic blacks, messianic irish, messianic budists, > > >etc? Its something that was created to specifically target the Jews. I > > would > > >love to have the balls to go around to the J for J posters and change > them > > >to Wiccans for Jesus, Muslims for Jesus, Chistians for Jesus and the > like. > > > > > >At 01:07 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >As a Christian, I keep a keen interest in the Jewish foundation of my > > > >beliefs. My understanding is that Messianic Jews still consider > > >themselves > > > >Jewish, in the sense that they are a Jew by race and not by religious > > > >beliefs. If I was Irish or African American, I would still be Irish or > > > >African American if I became a Christian, hence the idea behind being a > > > >Messianic Jew. Many Messianic Jews still participate in their Jewish > > > >customs because, quite frankly, it has a whole different set of meaning > > to > > > >them now. > > > > > > > >Being that we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law of God, > > >then > > > >we no longer believe that we are required to adhere to the Old > Covenant. > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Tim P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >To: "CF-Community" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:38 PM > > > >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > > > > > > > > > >> That gets into a very tricky thing. Many (many, many) messianic > Jewish > > > >groups were started up with the primary idea to convert Jews to > > > >Christianity. They may dress it up to make it more 'palatable' but it > > > >doesn't change anything. I see Jews for Jesus every summer and they get > > > >totally pissed off when I say to them "onward Christian soldiers" or > > "thats > > > >very Christian of you". They're entire budget comes from those > Christians > > > >who feel that Jews need to be 'saved'. It's an insult and one I don't > > > >accept. > > > >> Now there may be some people who truly believe that they can believe > in > > > >Jesus and be Jewish at the same time. The question almost always comes > > down > > > >to the laws. Christians don't keep Kosher. They don't follow the > Sabbath > > > >(Sunday was resurrection day, not the Sabbath), they do a LOT of other > > > >things against biblical law that Jews keep. If someone wants to try and > > be > > > >both, then fine and good, but I don't expect it to be easy or to last > > into > > > >the next generation. > > > >> > > > >> At 12:28 PM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >> >I understand that, I was just curious if you knew whether or not > they > > > >> >considered themselves Jewish. > > > >> > > > > >> >-----Original Message----- > > > >> >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:20 AM > > > >> >To: CF-Community > > > >> >Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> > > > > >> >Not to be tacky, but IMHO "messianic Jew" is an oxymoron, either as > > one > > > >> >word > > > >> >or two > > > >> >(two words = oxy moron, as in air head) > > > >> > > > > >> >sorry, but the Jewish faith does not believe the Messiah has come. > > > >> >anyone who does believe that by definition cannot be a Jew. > > > >> > > > > >> >-Ben > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> >> From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:21 AM > > > >> >> To: CF-Community > > > >> >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Would they agree with that, or is that your opinion. I honestly > > don't > > > >> >> know. The only reason I know of it is my wife has a friend who is > a > > > >> >> messianic Jew. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> >> From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:14 AM > > > >> >> To: CF-Community > > > >> >> Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Kevin- > > > >> >> but they are not Jews. > > > >> >> -Ben > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> >> > From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:12 AM > > > >> >> > To: CF-Community > > > >> >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Yes, technically they are Christians, however they still > > incorporate > > > >> >> > Jewish traditions. :) > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Kevin > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > > > >> >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:09 AM > > > >> >> > To: CF-Community > > > >> >> > Subject: RE: Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > You mean Christians? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > At 11:54 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >> >> > >Don't forget messianic Jews. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >-----Original Message----- > > > >> >> > >From: Braver, Ben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> > >Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:45 AM > > > >> >> > >To: CF-Community > > > >> >> > >Subject: RE:Religious Jews (was: Circumcision article link) > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >Michael, > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >I do not want to start a fight. But I am quite upset. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >I take strong exception to your use of the phrase "a > > > >> >> > rational rejected > > > >> >> > >by > > > >> >> > >religious Jews". > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >I *am* a religious Jew. > > > >> >> > >But I am *not* an Orthodox Jew, I am a Reform Jew. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >I recognize there being (at least) three movements in the > Jewish > > > >> >> > >religion - > > > >> >> > >Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform. I consider all three of > > > >> >> > them valid > > > >> >> > >and > > > >> >> > >their members religious. There are also secular Jews. I am not > a > > > >> >> > secular > > > >> >> > >Jew. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >In my mind, you are a religious Orthodox Jew. I am a > > > >> >> religious Reform > > > >> >> > >Jew. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >Apparently that mode of thinking only works in one direction. > > > >> >> > >This just backs up my previous posts about religious > > > >> >> > discrimination in > > > >> >> > >Israel by Orthodox against other movements. > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > ><and, oh by the way, the word is "rationale"> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >-Ben > > > >> >> > >:-( > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> >> > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > >> >> > >> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 8:40 AM > > > >> >> > >> To: CF-Community > > > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Circumcision article link > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> Actually, a religious person (at least this one) looks at it > > > >> >> > >> and says that its a commandment and I'm doing it because its > > > >> >> > >> a commandment. If science says that the commandment has a > > > >> >> > >> physical effect, then fine and good. The physical effect is > > > >> >> > >> totally secondary to the spiritual effect. > > > >> >> > >> To say that the commandment or every commandment was done for > > > >> >> > >> a physical reason such as health opens the door to denial of > > > >> >> > >> the root of the commandment. Hey, not eating pork was because > > > >> >> > >> of trichinosis. If we cook it right then we wouldn't get the > > > >> >> > >> disease and we can now eat it. Same for all the other > > > >> >> > >> commandments. This is the rational of the reform movement and > > > >> >> > >> a rational rejected by religious Jews. > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > >> At 03:51 AM 4/12/02, you wrote: > > > >> >> > >> >It seems that much of the old testament law, such as > > > >> >> > >> circumcision, what to eat and not to eat, etc., has a good > > > >> >> > >> basis in what is healthy, especailly given the lack of > > > >> >> > >> sanitary conditions of the times. > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> >A religious person might argue that this is God making up > > > >> >> > >> the lack of science of the time to protect people. A > > > >> >> > >> non-believer might argue that this is wise people coming up > > > >> >> > >> religious law to mirror their own observations about what > > > >> >> > >> makes a person sick. Either way, it demonstrates a good deal > > > >> >> > >> of wisdom in the old books. > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> >H. > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> >---------- Original > Message ---------------------------------- > > > >> >> > >> >from: "Braver, Ben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >> >> > >> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >> >> > >> >date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 19:56:23 -0700 > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> >>Found a link to the original article on circumcision & risk > > > >> >> > >> of cervical > > > >> >> > >> >>cancer - it's in the New England Journal of Medicine: > > > >> >> > >> >>http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/346/15/1105 > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >>Apparently, the foreskin is particularly susceptible to > > > >> >> > >> infection from HPV - > > > >> >> > >> >>human papilloma virus - which is linked to cervical cancer. > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> >>-Ben > > > >> >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-community@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
