>> although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. >> I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error
Well Dave we've gpt two things in common. :-) -Stace -----Original Message----- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:22 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: ColdFusion for kids > P.S. There is a member of this list who was/is a teenage > prodigy with CF (and quite a few other web technologies) > -- Dave, if you see this, you could provide some real-life > experience for input! I'm not sure whether you're referring to me, since there are plenty of Daves, so forgive me if I'm presuming too much. If you are referring to me, I unfortunately will have to disappoint you, since I was never a teenage prodigy with CF or anything else, although I was considered pretty competent with small arms in my late teens. I can comment on learning programming informally, though. I didn't come from a CS background, but learned programming the hard way, by trial-and-error, basically. Being self-taught sounds nice, but if you think about it, it's kind of silly - if you're self-taught, your teacher is by definition incompetent! And, that sums it up pretty well - by not learning programming in a formal setting, I made it a lot harder than it had to be. I think that this is true for a lot of people who got into programming during the web boom, actually - the lack of formal training is often very apparent. > Kids will learn to program the Internet -- just because > it's there! > > Why leave them to their own devices and some of the more > obscure languages -- to helter-skelter mix format layout > and content. > > Rather, teach them to do it right (better) with superior > tools. > > Are you saying that while the CFMX approach is good enough > for you and I to use, it is not good enough for our kids? > > What do you propose instead? I hate to be a wet blanket, but I'm not a big fan of teaching CF programming to kids, for several reasons. First, I'm not sure that we should be teaching programming to kids generally; on the list of things that everyone should learn, I think it's pretty low. There's a difference between learning basic computer skills (which, sadly, are necessary for almost everyone nowadays) and learning how to program. I think it's a sad commentary on the state of the computer industry that people have to spend so much time learning basic computer skills, actually - these things are supposed to be easy to use, but of course they aren't, really. I'd much rather see every student have a firmer grasp on the "three Rs" than have them all able to churn out web applications. I'd rather see civics classes again, actually. I just don't think programming is all that important, I guess. Second, for those students who want to learn programming, I think it's more important to focus on core programming concepts than it is to teach the specifics of CFMX. I'd rather see them learn programming using a lower-level language than CFML, and a more general-purpose language, too. I think Java and Python would be better languages for learning how to program. Finally, for teaching purposes, you don't want to make things too easy - for example, if you wanted to teach someone about HTML, Notepad would be a better tool (I think) than Dreamweaver MX. I see this a lot, actually, now that Dreamweaver is used in the Macromedia courses. The "Fast Track To ColdFusion" class is easier for students, because they don't have to know any HTML to get through it, but the students don't actually know how to generate a dynamic select box, say, because in Dreamweaver you do it by clicking on a button or two, rather than by typing in the necessary HTML and CFML. So, yes, CFMX is good enough for us to use, but not good enough for our kids. Personally, I'd be very distraught if my kids ended up being CF programmers. Shouldn't we want our kids to be better off than we are? (I don't have any kids, so this is purely hypothetical for me. If I did, I'd be pushing them toward law school instead of programming.) > So, now you have a 13-year-old who understands HTML, CFML, > SQL-- watch out! That's all well and good - if he's going to start working today as a consultant. In the long run, again, I think he'd be better served by learning general programming theory rather than the specifics of languages that may well be obsolete by the time he's ready to work in the field. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?forumid=4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/index.cfm?method=subscribe&forumid=4 FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm
