Yet + and - are called "operators" is school. Yet they conform exactly to the definition of a "function".
So, to the general public, what is an "operator"? On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > You had different teachers than I had. > > I remember being taught the definition of function in grade school, > again in high school, and again in college. The definitions weren't > the same but they tied together. > > A key concept has been that a function has a single value for any > single argument. y equals one minus x squared is a function (graph of > a parabola). y squared equals one minus x squared (graph of a circle) > is not a function. > > That term got borrowed for programming (naming things is hard), but > functions in programming languages have only a loose relationship to > the earlier concepts. > > -- > Raul > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:50 PM, Don Guinn <[email protected]> wrote: > > When in grade school they called things like + and - "operators". But > they > > never defined it. Then in trig thay had "functions", but they never > defined > > what functions were either. Then came calculus. Differentiating and > > integrating were never given a group name or general classification. I > > think teachers thought they were functions. But obviously quite different > > from things like sin and cos. I searched several math school books > looking > > for definitions. Never found any. They just started using the terms > without > > definition. > > > > I asked several people the difference between function and operator and > got > > nonsense answers. So for the fun of it, I googled it. Overwhelmed. The > only > > definitions that make sense are those of calling things as J did like +, > -, > > sin and cos "verbs" and differentials and integration "modifiers". > Because > > differentials and integrals return "functions". Or in J terminology, > > "verbs". > > > > These things are concepts. I think I have an understanding of the > concepts, > > but as to what to call them. Who knows? The thing is that we need to try > > many ways to describe them until one of them sticks. Maybe one of the > > descriptions will work with students or other people. But I suspect that > > few people realize that things like differentiation is really different > > from + and sin. > > > > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Too right, Devon. > >> > >> And have you explored the unicode situation with minus? Not to mention > pi > >> and mu. > >> > >> If programmers coded like they talk and write, planes would be dropping > on > >> our heads from all over the sky. > >> > >> I knew folk who'd never read a manual or an article about a novel > language. > >> And they didn't read comments in code. > >> Only the code – and then they'd try out variants, to see what worked and > >> what didn't. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:59 AM, Devon McCormick <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > I did once ask a fellow, knowledgable programmer if the distinction > >> between > >> > function and operator in conventional languages in fact meant "with > which > >> > alphabet do you spell it?" > >> > If it's a plain old ASCII name, like "plus", it's a function; a symbol > >> like > >> > "+" is an operator, even if both tokens behave exactly the same. > >> > Ultimately not a particularly illuminating distinction. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > > it does not match my understanding of how standards bodies work > >> > > > >> > > However they work, they don't seem to produce a leading answer to a > >> > leading > >> > > question. > >> > > > >> > > Before posting my appeal, I googled variants of "ISO computer > >> > terminology". > >> > > I got the impression there were over 30 ISO committees dealing with > >> > aspects > >> > > of this topic, including the vexed one of translating computer > >> manuals. I > >> > > gave up and asked this forum if anyone could recommend the leading > >> (ISO) > >> > > source of common terms, like: platform, program, etc. (…hey! – I've > >> just > >> > > reduxed my original post.) > >> > > > >> > > It seems nobody can. I might as well have asked the Freemasons their > >> > > meaning of "secret society". > >> > > > >> > > > that does not match my understanding of how language use works > >> > > > >> > > What hope is there of dialog with someone if you don't agree on > basic > >> > > terms? > >> > > That's my understanding of how language use works. Or doesn't. > >> > > > >> > > Yet here I am, setting out (…yet again) to talk to non-J initiates > >> about > >> > J > >> > > – and I want to use words which I know they'll understand, like: > >> > variable, > >> > > constant, function – and I want to avoid words like noun, verb, > >> pronoun, > >> > > proverb – because that's all J mystery jargon. > >> > > > >> > > Don't I need a touchstone of definitions my reader and I will agree > on? > >> > > > >> > > To-date I've come up with these candidates: > >> > > (a) The Oxford Dictionary (…nowadays better than I expected it to > be, > >> > > going by past experience) > >> > > (b) The following site: http://techterms.com > >> > > …which is cool. Just what I was looking for. But lacks the > authority of > >> > an > >> > > ISO standard. > >> > > > >> > > Also (…oh no!) I look up a word like: Constant –and I don't agree > with > >> > what > >> > > it says… > >> > > https://techterms.com/definition/constant > >> > > In the final para it seems to be describing #define, not: const (…if > >> you > >> > > know any C/C++). > >> > > Plus no mention of IMHO the chief role of a "constant": to behave > >> > > programatically like a variable but preclude reassignment. > >> > > Thus scotching the perennial C/C++ bug: > >> > > if (myconst = x) { … } > >> > > > >> > > Also, on the home page, "Today's Quiz Question" is garbled… not a > good > >> > sign > >> > > for something purporting to be authoritative. > >> > > > >> > > Can anyone do better? > >> > > > >> > > …there, now I've described exactly what I'm looking for. > >> > > > >> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > I do not think that "common usage" depends on ISO standards. > >> > > > > >> > > > Or, at least, that does not match my understanding of how language > >> use > >> > > > works (and, for that matter, it does not match my understanding of > >> how > >> > > > standards bodies work). > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks, > >> > > > > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Raul > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark <[email protected] > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, > >> program, > >> > > > etc", > >> > > > > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Especially not J-ers! > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford Dictionary > of > >> > > > English > >> > > > > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has > authoritative > >> but > >> > > > > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for > all > >> > I've > >> > > > tried > >> > > > > . > >> > > > > > >> > > > > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this > list > >> > use, > >> > > > or > >> > > > > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean that > >> > nobody > >> > > > has > >> > > > > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT professionals > >> > doesn't > >> > > > > extend to terminology, it seems. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and > that > >> > was > >> > > > > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of > translating > >> > > > manuals. > >> > > > > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in my > >> day. > >> > An > >> > > > > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because he > >> > couldn't > >> > > > > make head or tail of the Arabic one. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner <[email protected] > > > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> I went back and looked at some of the existing material > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples: > >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> This text seems devoid of too many terms: > >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so both > may > >> > > still > >> > > > >> need to be unpacked more > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark < > [email protected]> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" text > >> for J > >> > > > >> without > >> > > > >> > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like: > >> > platform, > >> > > > >> > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, > >> string, > >> > > > >> > character, number … > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in > >> English)? > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is > there > >> > one > >> > > > that > >> > > > >> > stands out for you? > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > >> > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear > >> published > >> > > > free > >> > > > >> > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, please > >> don't > >> > > > offer > >> > > > >> > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of > course > >> > I'd > >> > > > be > >> > > > >> > frightfully interested to hear them one day.) > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > > > ---------- > >> > > > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> > > > forums.htm > >> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > > ---------- > >> > > > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> > > forums.htm > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > ---------- > >> > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> > forums.htm > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ---------- > >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > >> forums.htm > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > Devon McCormick, CFA > >> > > >> > Quantitative Consultant > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ---------- > >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ > forums.htm > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
