If you are looking for what people in general mean, being able to change the definition isn't much of an advantage.
-- Raul On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Devon McCormick <[email protected]> wrote: > This is little better than that: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator_(computer_programming) . > > Also, I can edit Wikipedia. > > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 9:08 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > >> https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/operator >> >> -- >> Raul >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Don Guinn <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Yet + and - are called "operators" is school. Yet they conform exactly to >> > the definition of a "function". >> > >> > So, to the general public, what is an "operator"? >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 4:57 AM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> You had different teachers than I had. >> >> >> >> I remember being taught the definition of function in grade school, >> >> again in high school, and again in college. The definitions weren't >> >> the same but they tied together. >> >> >> >> A key concept has been that a function has a single value for any >> >> single argument. y equals one minus x squared is a function (graph of >> >> a parabola). y squared equals one minus x squared (graph of a circle) >> >> is not a function. >> >> >> >> That term got borrowed for programming (naming things is hard), but >> >> functions in programming languages have only a loose relationship to >> >> the earlier concepts. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Raul >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:50 PM, Don Guinn <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > When in grade school they called things like + and - "operators". But >> >> they >> >> > never defined it. Then in trig thay had "functions", but they never >> >> defined >> >> > what functions were either. Then came calculus. Differentiating and >> >> > integrating were never given a group name or general classification. I >> >> > think teachers thought they were functions. But obviously quite >> different >> >> > from things like sin and cos. I searched several math school books >> >> looking >> >> > for definitions. Never found any. They just started using the terms >> >> without >> >> > definition. >> >> > >> >> > I asked several people the difference between function and operator >> and >> >> got >> >> > nonsense answers. So for the fun of it, I googled it. Overwhelmed. The >> >> only >> >> > definitions that make sense are those of calling things as J did like >> +, >> >> -, >> >> > sin and cos "verbs" and differentials and integration "modifiers". >> >> Because >> >> > differentials and integrals return "functions". Or in J terminology, >> >> > "verbs". >> >> > >> >> > These things are concepts. I think I have an understanding of the >> >> concepts, >> >> > but as to what to call them. Who knows? The thing is that we need to >> try >> >> > many ways to describe them until one of them sticks. Maybe one of the >> >> > descriptions will work with students or other people. But I suspect >> that >> >> > few people realize that things like differentiation is really >> different >> >> > from + and sin. >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 9:09 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Too right, Devon. >> >> >> >> >> >> And have you explored the unicode situation with minus? Not to >> mention >> >> pi >> >> >> and mu. >> >> >> >> >> >> If programmers coded like they talk and write, planes would be >> dropping >> >> on >> >> >> our heads from all over the sky. >> >> >> >> >> >> I knew folk who'd never read a manual or an article about a novel >> >> language. >> >> >> And they didn't read comments in code. >> >> >> Only the code – and then they'd try out variants, to see what worked >> and >> >> >> what didn't. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:59 AM, Devon McCormick <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > I did once ask a fellow, knowledgable programmer if the distinction >> >> >> between >> >> >> > function and operator in conventional languages in fact meant "with >> >> which >> >> >> > alphabet do you spell it?" >> >> >> > If it's a plain old ASCII name, like "plus", it's a function; a >> symbol >> >> >> like >> >> >> > "+" is an operator, even if both tokens behave exactly the same. >> >> >> > Ultimately not a particularly illuminating distinction. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > it does not match my understanding of how standards bodies >> work >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > However they work, they don't seem to produce a leading answer >> to a >> >> >> > leading >> >> >> > > question. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Before posting my appeal, I googled variants of "ISO computer >> >> >> > terminology". >> >> >> > > I got the impression there were over 30 ISO committees dealing >> with >> >> >> > aspects >> >> >> > > of this topic, including the vexed one of translating computer >> >> >> manuals. I >> >> >> > > gave up and asked this forum if anyone could recommend the >> leading >> >> >> (ISO) >> >> >> > > source of common terms, like: platform, program, etc. (…hey! – >> I've >> >> >> just >> >> >> > > reduxed my original post.) >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > It seems nobody can. I might as well have asked the Freemasons >> their >> >> >> > > meaning of "secret society". >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > that does not match my understanding of how language use works >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > What hope is there of dialog with someone if you don't agree on >> >> basic >> >> >> > > terms? >> >> >> > > That's my understanding of how language use works. Or doesn't. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Yet here I am, setting out (…yet again) to talk to non-J >> initiates >> >> >> about >> >> >> > J >> >> >> > > – and I want to use words which I know they'll understand, like: >> >> >> > variable, >> >> >> > > constant, function – and I want to avoid words like noun, verb, >> >> >> pronoun, >> >> >> > > proverb – because that's all J mystery jargon. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Don't I need a touchstone of definitions my reader and I will >> agree >> >> on? >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > To-date I've come up with these candidates: >> >> >> > > (a) The Oxford Dictionary (…nowadays better than I expected it >> to >> >> be, >> >> >> > > going by past experience) >> >> >> > > (b) The following site: http://techterms.com >> >> >> > > …which is cool. Just what I was looking for. But lacks the >> >> authority of >> >> >> > an >> >> >> > > ISO standard. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Also (…oh no!) I look up a word like: Constant –and I don't agree >> >> with >> >> >> > what >> >> >> > > it says… >> >> >> > > https://techterms.com/definition/constant >> >> >> > > In the final para it seems to be describing #define, not: const >> (…if >> >> >> you >> >> >> > > know any C/C++). >> >> >> > > Plus no mention of IMHO the chief role of a "constant": to behave >> >> >> > > programatically like a variable but preclude reassignment. >> >> >> > > Thus scotching the perennial C/C++ bug: >> >> >> > > if (myconst = x) { … } >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Also, on the home page, "Today's Quiz Question" is garbled… not a >> >> good >> >> >> > sign >> >> >> > > for something purporting to be authoritative. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > Can anyone do better? >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > …there, now I've described exactly what I'm looking for. >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Raul Miller < >> [email protected]> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > I do not think that "common usage" depends on ISO standards. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Or, at least, that does not match my understanding of how >> language >> >> >> use >> >> >> > > > works (and, for that matter, it does not match my >> understanding of >> >> >> how >> >> >> > > > standards bodies work). >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Thanks, >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > -- >> >> >> > > > Raul >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Ian Clark < >> [email protected] >> >> > >> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > Sorry, Joe, I want "common programmer terms" for "platform, >> >> >> program, >> >> >> > > > etc", >> >> >> > > > > i.e. terms common to all programmers, not just J-ers. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Especially not J-ers! >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > I tried looking up some of these terms in the Oxford >> Dictionary >> >> of >> >> >> > > > English >> >> >> > > > > (courtesy Apple) and I'm impressed. It seems it has >> >> authoritative >> >> >> but >> >> >> > > > > straightforward meanings under the subheading "Computing" for >> >> all >> >> >> > I've >> >> >> > > > tried >> >> >> > > > > . >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > But I'm still hoping to hear what ISO standard people on this >> >> list >> >> >> > use, >> >> >> > > > or >> >> >> > > > > some standards body. I'm taking the baffled silence to mean >> that >> >> >> > nobody >> >> >> > > > has >> >> >> > > > > ever used such a list. The fabled precision of IT >> professionals >> >> >> > doesn't >> >> >> > > > > extend to terminology, it seems. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > Such lists exist. I've seen them – though only in German, and >> >> that >> >> >> > was >> >> >> > > > > decades ago. Documenters need them for the purpose of >> >> translating >> >> >> > > > manuals. >> >> >> > > > > Though maybe the whole thing is still woolly, like it was in >> my >> >> >> day. >> >> >> > An >> >> >> > > > > Arab once told me he always used the English manual because >> he >> >> >> > couldn't >> >> >> > > > > make head or tail of the Arabic one. >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Joe Bogner < >> [email protected] >> >> > >> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> I went back and looked at some of the existing material >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> This seems to be a good list of definitions with examples: >> >> >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/primer/contents.htm >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> This text seems devoid of too many terms: >> >> >> > > > >> http://www.jsoftware.com/books/pdf/easyj.pdf >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> Of course, I'm not reading these with "beginner eyes" so >> both >> >> may >> >> >> > > still >> >> >> > > > >> need to be unpacked more >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Ian Clark < >> >> [email protected]> >> >> >> > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > >> > It's absurdly difficult to write a good "first-contact" >> text >> >> >> for J >> >> >> > > > >> without >> >> >> > > > >> > reference to a single accepted source of definitions like: >> >> >> > platform, >> >> >> > > > >> > program, app, script, variable, constant, function, array, >> >> >> string, >> >> >> > > > >> > character, number … >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> > Is there an ISO standard for common programmer terms (in >> >> >> English)? >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> > If the answer is: legion (…my first impression) – then is >> >> there >> >> >> > one >> >> >> > > > that >> >> >> > > > >> > stands out for you? >> >> >> > > > >> > >> >> >> > > > >> > I have an operational need for a weblink to a good clear >> >> >> published >> >> >> > > > free >> >> >> > > > >> > authoritative text. To avoid cluttering this thread, >> please >> >> >> don't >> >> >> > > > offer >> >> >> > > > >> > your own definitions of the above terms here (although of >> >> course >> >> >> > I'd >> >> >> > > > be >> >> >> > > > >> > frightfully interested to hear them one day.) >> >> >> > > > >> > ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> > > > ---------- >> >> >> > > > >> > For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> > > > forums.htm >> >> >> > > > >> ------------------------------ >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> > > ---------- >> >> >> > > > >> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> > > forums.htm >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> > ---------- >> >> >> > > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> > forums.htm >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ---------- >> >> >> > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ---------- >> >> >> > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Devon McCormick, CFA >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Quantitative Consultant >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ---------- >> >> >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> >> forums.htm >> >> >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> forums.htm >> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ---------- >> >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >> forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > > -- > > Devon McCormick, CFA > > Quantitative Consultant > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
