You forgot Shakespear : "to be or not to be"
Ole
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Ole Drews Jensen
Systems Network Manager
CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
RWR Enterprises, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://www.RouterChief.com
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NEED A JOB ???
http://www.oledrews.com/job
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-----Original Message-----
From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an
engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device
drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding
because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders.
Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a
designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that
civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network
product developers.
But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs,
an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability
to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to
define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism,
and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference
within easy reach that will give me that information.
I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group
of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered..."1518...the first in
the CIDR RFC series." I was too tired to realize why my colleagues
went into hysterics.
As to wanting to be,
Aristotle: "To be is to do"
Nietzsche: "To do is to be"
Sinatra: "Do be do be do"
>You sounded like an "engineer want a be" and don't have an engineering
>degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper
>with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone
>without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer
not
>just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to
>get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication
>too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree.
>
>Just my 2 cents,
>
>mark,
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM
>To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>
>
>A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it
>successfully.
>
>not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have
>seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and
>too slow
>and when given the project to a so called " plain coder" he has completed
>the project
>come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should
>have been
>designed in the first place.
>
>It adds fuel to the fire......... what is valued more a piece of paper from
>uni or a person
>with real world experience ???
>
>Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone
>who has real world experience
>and knows true engineering ?
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>>
>> My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering degree
>> and
>> also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base
on
>> the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree.
>>
>> my two cents,
>>
>> mark,
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>>
>>
>> >That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-]
>>
>> I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever
>> mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally
>> comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant
>> discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an
>> argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer
>> science program gets into relatively little you need to know to
>> design and implement protocols, other than as a coder.
>>
>> Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person.
>> There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and
> > large network design, but much less with troubleshooting.
>>
>> Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than
>> troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that
>> explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and
>> performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary
>> condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune
>> event?
>>
>> >
>> >They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find many
>> >that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different
>> type
>> >of personality.
>> >
>> >Priscilla
>> >
>> >At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote:
>> >>Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job
>> >>discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about
>> how
>> >>CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs.
>> >>
>> >>I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my
signature)
>> on
>> >>another Cisco list I'm a member of:
>> >>
>> >>Hth,
>> >>
>> >>Ole
>> >>
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> Ole Drews Jensen
>> >> Systems Network Manager
>> >> CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
>> >> RWR Enterprises, Inc.
>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> NEED A JOB ???
>> >> http://www.oledrews.com/job
>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>
>> >>Message: 1
>> >>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 -0000
>> >>From: "JDO" >
>> >>Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE
>> >>
>> >>Hello,
>> >>
>> >>My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas,
>> >>Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing
>> >>protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must
>> >>be a software engineer and they must be degreed.
>> >>
>> >>If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an
>> >>email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at
>> >>972-991-7569.
>> >>
>> >>Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can
>> >>find their site at
>> >>
>> >>Thanks
>> >>
>> > >Johnna
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=13383&t=12805
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