>You forgot Shakespear : "to be or not to be"
>
>Ole
That's algebra, not philosophy, when stated
2B | !2B
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Ole Drews Jensen
> Systems Network Manager
> CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
> RWR Enterprises, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> http://www.RouterChief.com
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> NEED A JOB ???
> http://www.oledrews.com/job
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:41 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>
>
>I don't completely agree with either of you. Fact: I don't have an
>engineering degree. Fact: I have been a programmer of device
>drivers and the like. Fact: my management doesn't want me coding
>because they value my design skills more highly. I can mentor coders.
>
>Now, is much of the content of an engineering curriculum useful to a
>designer? Well, depends on the type of engineering. I suspect that
>civil and chemical engineering are of minimal value to network
>product developers.
>
>But is a degree the only criterion? A resume of successful designs,
>an extensive bibliography of refereed publications, and the ability
>to use theoretical techniques are realities. I may not be able to
>define the precise differences between a monomorphism, isomorphism,
>and homomorphism off the top of my head, but there's a reference
>within easy reach that will give me that information.
>
>I'm vaguely reminded of the time I checked into a hotel with a group
>of CCSI's, got my room number, and muttered..."1518...the first in
>the CIDR RFC series." I was too tired to realize why my colleagues
>went into hysterics.
>
>As to wanting to be,
>
> Aristotle: "To be is to do"
> Nietzsche: "To do is to be"
> Sinatra: "Do be do be do"
>
>>You sounded like an "engineer want a be" and don't have an engineering
>>degree! What you say is true, engineering degree is just a piece of paper
>>with out experience, but it is a good start a very good start for someone
>>without experience. It takes hard work and dedication to get an engineer
>not
>>just a few weeks of reading a book from Cisco Press. Don't get me wrong, to
>>get to the CCIE level also takes a great deal of hard work and dedication
>>too, but it is minimal compare to getting an engineer degree.
>>
>>Just my 2 cents,
>>
>>mark,
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Baker, Jason [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:49 PM
>>To: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>>
>>
>>A true engineer is a person who knows what to do, and complete it
>>successfully.
>>
>>not someone who can tell people they need to complete this or that. I have
>>seen plenty of so called engineers design software that is utter $%^^% and
>>too slow
>>and when given the project to a so called " plain coder" he has completed
>>the project
>>come out with software that is quick, efficient and how the software should
>>have been
>>designed in the first place.
>>
>>It adds fuel to the fire......... what is valued more a piece of paper from
>>uni or a person
>>with real world experience ???
>>
>>Why should someone who has a uni paper be called engineer and not someone
>>who has real world experience
>>and knows true engineering ?
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Liang Mark J Civ AFRL/PROI [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>> Sent: Friday, 20 July 2001 9:45 am
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Subject: RE: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>>>
>>> My definition of Software Engineer is someone with an engineering
degree
>>> and
>>> also does software engineering. A Developer/Coder just write code base
>on
>>> the engineering requirements and doesn't require a degree.
>>>
>>> my two cents,
>>>
>>> mark,
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Howard C. Berkowitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 1:17 PM
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Subject: Re: To CCIE's without a job [7:12805]
>>>
>>>
>>> >That's a scary thought: CCIEs who develop protocols. ;-]
>>>
>>> I know very few respected protocol or platform designers that ever
>>> mentioned having a CCIE. On the other hand, it only occasionally
>>> comes up that one has a PhD, which isn't always in a relevant
>>> discipline. I'm amused by the degree requirement--I could see an
>>> argument for a master's or doctorate, but the undergraduate computer
>>> science program gets into relatively little you need to know to
>>> design and implement protocols, other than as a coder.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm a much better developer than I am a support person.
>>> There's overlap between the skills of product/protocol design and
>> > large network design, but much less with troubleshooting.
>>>
>>> Even quality testing is a somewhat different skill set than
>>> troubleshooting. For example, has anyone seen a Cisco exam that
>>> explored the differences among conformance, interoperability, and
>>> performance testing? The difference between a correct but boundary
>>> condition event, a syntactically incorrect event, and an inopportune
>>> event?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >They are looking for software engineers. They aren't going to find
many
>>> >that have a CCIE? It's a different skill set and requires a different
>>> type
>>> >of personality.
>>> >
>>> >Priscilla
>>> >
>>> >At 09:41 AM 7/18/01, Ole Drews Jensen wrote:
>>> >>Forgive me for sending this here, I know there's a place for job
>>> >>discussions, but I noticed that there have been several e-mails about
>>> how
>>> >>CCIE's now have a harder time getting jobs.
>>> >>
>>> >>I received this e-mail (look at the message included after my
>signature)
>>> on
>>> >>another Cisco list I'm a member of:
>>> >>
>>> >>Hth,
>>> >>
>>> >>Ole
>>> >>
>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >> Ole Drews Jensen
>>> >> Systems Network Manager
>>> >> CCNA, MCSE, MCP+I
>>> >> RWR Enterprises, Inc.
>>> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >> http://www.OleDrews.com/CCNP
>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >> NEED A JOB ???
>>> >> http://www.oledrews.com/job
>>> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >>
>>> >>Message: 1
>>> >>Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:11:26 -0000
>>> >>From: "JDO" >
>>> >>Subject: Looking for a Special Kind of CCIE
>>> >>
>>> >>Hello,
>>> >>
>>> >>My name is Johnna Smith and I work for a placement firm in Dallas,
>>> >>Texas. I am in desperate need of a CCIE that DEVELOPS routing
>>> >>protocols. I need them to have BGP, DSPF, IS-IS, and MPLS. The must
>>> >>be a software engineer and they must be degreed.
>>> >>
>>> >>If any of you could help me, please give me a call or shoot me an
>>> >>email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at
>>> >>972-991-7569.
>>> >>
>>> >>Just to take a look at someof our other positions please go to
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>We also work with another agency that focuese more on IT, you can
>>> >>find their site at
>>> >>
>>> >>Thanks
>>> >>
>>> > >Johnna
Message Posted at:
http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=13386&t=12805
--------------------------------------------------
FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html
Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
