> feel the need to do (what's up with that attitude anyway? It's almost like > some people think I'm somehow insulting their religion, and since when did > Cisco become a religion?).
Our IOS who art in router Hallowed be thy CLI :) > * Yes you are correct to say that that there is no such thing as "basic > Juniper or beginning Juniper". Such a thing is indeed an oxymoron due to > the nature of Juniper's targeted market. So let me revise me argument This is likely to change. I've heard rumors that Juniper will start to get into a midrange market. I don't believe they can survive in the core alone. > slightly and say that my argument only applies to intermediate and > expert-level skills. For networking newbies, the CCNA, I concede is the > only reasonable game in town. But for intermediate level people, I believe > that now you can start comparing Juniper and, say the CCNP, to a reasonable > degree. It is my gut feeling that the ratio is indeed somwhere around 330:1 > for CCNP's to "JNCNP's" (if such a thing existed). Now it is true that I do > not have any hard numbers to back that up (and nobody has any hard numbers > that disprove it), but I appeal to the fact that the CCNP is fairly > well-known, and has already attained semi-paper-cert status, in the sense Paper CCXX have been created by employers. I have a fair bit if experience under my belt but no cert as of yet (I'm working on my CCNA and CCNP simultaneusly, I've taken some Boson's lately and I do better on the CCNP that the CCNA :( . If employers wanted experience and personality, the certs would not be as regarded as they are today. Anything under a CCIE is just a piece of paper. If employers were looking for employees and not pieces of paper, less certs would be needed. I want my cert to prove competnecy, I do not want it to be used as a hiring decision. I want the employer to hire ME !. > that CCNP braindumps are out there and pretty easy to find. This therefore > means there is a great deal of extra competition for the "real" CCNP's' (the > ones who can back up their cert with actual experience). Whereas it is > much more difficult to fake your way around the Juniper world, such that > anybody who has even 1 year of Juniper experience does in fact know a fairly > good amount, under the notion that if he was true dummy, he would never be > allowed the chance to touch any Juniper stuff in the first place. It is If we handled certs like drivers licenses, we would have a lot less CCNPs today. There should be a practical componenet to the CCNP as well. And such tests should be taken at a minimum 6 months after the CCNP written components. These certs are not memerizaion drills (at least not for me). I refuse to cram for a cert (yeah there is a little cramming over little details before tests). I want to understand something such that I don;t need to cram. I want to have enough hands on experience to make it a breeze to go and write a test. > the extra competition, in the Cisco world, of paper-certs and people who are > only lab rats and no practical experience, that is what really screws things > up for the Cisco people. Juniper doesn't suffer from this problem (at > least, not yet). There are 20 or so JNCIEs in the world. 50-99% are likely to be Juniper employees. We really have to get over what the paper says and start taking a look at the employee more and more. Employers may love certs because they are under the impression that it will save them time in the hiring process. They are trusting that the cert is able to assertain the skills of their employee. Certs become useless not because of paper certs but because of employers that fail to take the effor to see the person behing them. > * Competition. Anybody who reads my arguments carefully will see that my > entire thesis rests on the notion of competition - the fact that there is > substantially more competition for every Cisco job opening than there is for > a Juniper job. For example, I appeal to the cashier vs. lawyer argument. I would disagree. There are a lot less qualified people to maintain Juniper equipment. If there are only 3000 people in the world that have touched the equipment (I think that number may even be quite overstated), and there are 100 jobs out there for them, there is a lot less competition for Juniper jobs. Untill Juniper gets more penetration in the market , its certs are not as worthwhile as are Cisco's. As I stated above, many of those JNCIEs will be Juniper employees or employees of their largest partners/contractors. These are not individuals on the open market. > Clearly there is more demand for cashiers than lawyers, because how many > times do you buy something vs. how many times do you sue somebody? But does Um.. In the USA :) Lawsuits are just about as common as purchases :) Here in Canada, there is a very different stance on lawsuits (but thats another story). > it then follow that cashiers are paid better than lawyers? Of course not, > because the fact there is a vastly larger pool of labor supply for cashiers > than lawyers. You can pretty much take anybody off the street and teach him > how to ring people up on a cash register. But you can't just take anybody > off the street and get him to pass the Bar exam. So it's a case of > constrained demand, but even more constrained supply. Of, if you prefer a > more mathematical approach, is it really that desirable for there to be 100X > the job openings, if there are also 10,000X the people competing with you > for those openings? Lets guest here (there are just guesses, they only pertain to equip that is layer3 capable) MANUFAC. Pieces oF Equip in Market #of People Qualified Juniper 50,000 3000 Cisco 6,000,000 80,000 74 Pieces Per Cisco qualified tech 16 pieces per Juniper Tech Looks like a lot more competition for the Juniper jobs. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=24424&t=24336 -------------------------------------------------- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
