Yes, there is definitely a learning curve with Clojure and its ecosystem that makes it hard to just "dip in" every few years. It is not optimized for beginners and I don't think it ever will be (although the beginner experience is much better now than it used to be). It is not designed for "off-the-shelf" solutions (Django, Rails, etc). There are already plenty of technical solutions for those situations. That may be frustrating but that's the reality. Clojure isn't going to be mainstream and it's not going to take over the world. There are dozens of languages on the JVM and dozens of other languages. Some are already mainstream and will remain so. The rest will always remain niche. Again, as frustrating as that might be that's just reality.
A lot of people who come to Clojure do so precisely because it eschews the "batteries included" framework-heavy approach of some other technologies. There are a lot of outdated tutorials, it's true. And a lot of libraries that were created years ago and then abandoned. Those were created by early adopters who were excited by Clojure but then moved on to another tech (or back to their previous tech). That's certainly very frustrating. It's pretty much impossible to modify those tutorials/libraries now to help folks who come across them, new to Clojure, and of course, we can't take them down either. Where we run across editable content, we can either make it better or add caveats on it being outdated, but that's a small segment of all that bad information. On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:12 PM z9znz <zednine...@gmail.com> wrote: > This may sound like a rant, but it's not meant to be. This is just my > recurring frustration whenever I am led by my strong desire to use Clojure, > but my typical use case is a basic business web app with authentication. > Such use case may not at all be the best use of Clojure, but it should be > perfectly reasonable as Clojure is a powerful general purpose language. > > It was not my intent to suggest that Clojure lacked a good solution to any > particular need (authentication, data persistence, or anything else). What > is missing is a complete starter kit with _current_ instructions. > > Every year or two I go looking for something like this, or at least a > guide or tutorial. And every time, I encounter at least one of the > following: > - A key element of the guide is outdated or depends on a library which is > outdated (and where in some cases there is a reference made that everyone > should switch to library Y, but then they're on their own to figure out how > to use Y in this context) > - One or more element of the simple app is not illustrated in complete > detail, but the author points the reader to a tutorial for that element > elsewhere... except that some of the guides use boot while some use lein > while some use deps (which itself isn't necessarily a huge deal, but forces > the beginner to start diving into build/dependency management tools rather > than getting a first app built) > - The guide doesn't cover a complete app > > For whatever reason, searches for Clojure-related topics tend to > (largely/only) turn up results that are 5+ years old. That's an eternity > in internet time. Yes there are some great current libraries that probably > do everything one might need, but still there are roadblocks which > beginners will encounter where the answers are nonexistent or outdated. > > With respect to database interaction, I know of but haven't used Korma > (which now appears to be dead?), HugSQL, and others. Of course there's > straight JDBC Java use (whereby I should just write my own thin JDBC > wrappers like I did back in the Java Server Pages days...?). <- If that's > the answer, then I have no problem doing it; but I would suspect there's > some other pattern that leverages some of the strengths of Clojure a bit > more. This one current example is basically useless: > https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application . It > illustrates enough to show that Clojure can route and respond to http > requests, and it can touch a database; but surely it is not an example of > how people actually write Clojure web apps. > > In contrast, there are numerous Django and Rails guides which illustrate > the complete process of building a web app with their language+framework. > They even tend to include some amount of tests and even > internationalization (as well as authentication, database interaction, and > sometimes API/json cases). > > Most of us don't get hired into Clojure companies, so any learning and > doing is more of an evening/solo activity. Probably many of us who have > been exposed to Clojure really would love to use it in our day jobs. But > often the best way to get a new language or approach accepted is to build > something useful and relevant to show the company. That's how Java got > into C++ shops and how Ruby got into Java shops. > > Clojure will remain vital to some big companies regardless of whether the > cost of entry is reduced; but sadly, the comparative abomination called > JavaScript will continue to grow - eating the backend now too. It could be > Clojure/ClojureScript taking over the world. > > > On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 10:51:47 PM UTC+1, Sean Corfield wrote: >> >> > some form of database interface (definitely need not be ORM; just a >> demonstrated pattern) >> >> I'm curious as to what you feel is missing beyond clojure.java.jdbc / >> next.jdbc? SQL is the lingua franca for relational databases and those >> libraries provide the interface between Clojure data -- hash maps and >> vectors of hash maps -- and rows/resultsets. >> >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:30 PM z9znz <zedni...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> This is what primarily keeps me from ever building a first (web) app >>> with Clojure. >>> >>> Even the Web Development with Clojure, 3rd edition that I bought (beta) >>> still does not have the section on this topic filled in. >>> >>> I'm convinced that part of what prevents Clojure from being adopted more >>> is the lack of a killer framework. When I ask about this, the usual answer >>> is that Clojure people don't like to be constrained and are happier to >>> choose their own tools and libraries. This is great if you already know >>> what you're doing, but it's a vertical wall for newbies. >>> >>> I admit I have not yet looked at Coast on Clojure - and perhaps it has >>> the potential to be that entry point for newbies. >>> >>> But apropos to your question, perhaps the Coast docs on authentication >>> will help you. They illustrate using Buddy. Buddy has not been updated >>> since Q3 2017 (a fact I find discouraging), but perhaps it is still >>> relevant. >>> https://github.com/coast-framework/coast/blob/master/docs/authentication.md >>> >>> I keep dreaming of a Clojure-based starter system that includes >>> authentication and some form of database interface (definitely need not be >>> ORM; just a demonstrated pattern). We could begin with that, and once we >>> have a clue what's what, then we can go the usual Clojure route and hand >>> select every library. >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 8:29:04 PM UTC+1, Bost wrote: >>>> >>>> I have difficulties finding up-to-date information, tutorials, >>>> articles, blog posts etc. concerning WebApp authentication and >>>> authorization. >>>> >>>> The most "recent" useful articles I found are from 2015 and 2014: >>>> https://rundis.github.io/blog/2015/buddy_auth_part2.html >>>> https://blog.knoldus.com/google-sign-in-using-clojure/ >>>> >>>> Uhm, my google-fu is getting weak... can anyone help please? Thanks >>>> >>>> Bost >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to clo...@googlegroups.com >>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with >>> your first post. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> clo...@googlegroups.com >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Clojure" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to clo...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clojure/6d358084-de60-42a7-8893-a118a207bdab%40googlegroups.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clojure/6d358084-de60-42a7-8893-a118a207bdab%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> >> >> -- >> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN >> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ >> World Singles Networks, LLC. -- https://worldsinglesnetworks.com/ >> >> "Perfection is the enemy of the good." >> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with > your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Clojure" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clojure/4a7cfcb6-268e-4669-9230-896d77697120%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/clojure/4a7cfcb6-268e-4669-9230-896d77697120%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles Networks, LLC. -- https://worldsinglesnetworks.com/ "Perfection is the enemy of the good." -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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