I should clarify that the issue with Clojure.org isn't really \design, per se----it's the choice of what to present on what level. Scala gives you pointers for what you need to know, right away at the top: About Scala, Documentation, Code Examples, Software, Scala Developers. Whereas Clojure has a sidebar taller that the average screen; one of the subjects is:
Multimethods and Hierarchies Which doesn't \mean anything unless you already know multimethods \well. A lot of good material is on the site already; but it seems to have been added incrementally without any big choices being made about how to organize it. On Oct 1, 11:20 pm, nchurch <nchubr...@gmail.com> wrote: > To cite some concrete examples: > > "Datomic" > > 0 hits on Clojure.org > > "Clojurescript" > > 1 hit > > On Oct 1, 11:09 pm, nchurch <nchubr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I put together the Getting Started confluence page. I'm sure it could > > still be improved, but adding further to it won't really fix the > > problems you've noticed, and that many other people have noted. It's > > still on a secondary site, and Confluence doesn't really give you a > > lot of design options----also ordinary Clojure Contributors don't have > > the ability to \delete existing pages, so new material will for now > > just add clutter on the sidebar. > > > At least one respected Clojurian that I know of has offered to write a > > new clojure.org site, but replacing or updating it has not been a > > priority. > > > Brent is right that you can find what you need on Clojure.org without > > it being "pretty", but the current (and now quite old) site sends new > > users some messages we may not necessarily intend: > > > 1. People hoping merely to Get Something Done will be looking to a > > streamlined site as evidence that they won't have to waste too much > > time getting up and running with their work. These users will note, > > consciously or not, that the information they really need is one among > > many choices buried on a link off the bottom of a page linked from the > > \sixth subheading on the sidebar of the main site. (Yes, Getting > > Started apparently falls under 'Reference'----which is itself > > secondary to 'Swag'.) > > > 2. People looking to make a creative contribution will look for > > evidence that what they have to offer is valued. If that contribution > > is tools for building well-designed websites, Clojure.org will not > > give the impression that anyone in the community would care. This > > impression would be false, but you'd have to look quite a bit harder > > to realize this. > > > Some people may not mind turning away new user #1; but turning away > > new user #2 is unfortunate in any possible world. > > > If I wanted to give someone an elevator pitch for Clojure, I'd admit > > that it is new and has some rough edges; but that it offers tremendous > > flexibility, power, and concision; and that it is evolving into an > > environment where an entire web application, from data all the way up > > to presentation, can be written in the same carefully-designed > > language and environment. > > > That's \huge, but it doesn't come across in Clojure.org at all. > > > On Oct 1, 2:13 pm, aboy021 <arthur.bo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I decided to quickly compare the website experience of starting Clojure > > > and > > > starting Scala. > > > > I do a Google search for Clojure > > > I decide to try the first link, Clojure.org > > > There's some basic information. I follow the somewhat obscure link halfway > > > down the side, "Getting Started" > > > Ok, that looks promising, now I can get a REPL to interact with. > > > I follow the link to the Getting Started Documentation > > > (http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started) (isn't that where I > > > already was?) > > > Still flailing a bit, I follow the link to Mark Volkmann's Tutorial. > > > This is the first chance I've had to see what Clojure actually looks like > > > and how to program in it. > > > > In stark contrast, I try searching for Scala. > > > I get presented with an appealing, nicely laid out page with large links > > > to > > > an introduction to the language and a page on getting started. > > > There are links in an easy to navigate menu with Information about the > > > language, documentation, code examples, Software, and Developer > > > information. > > > > Now, I'm no Scala developer, but at first glance it seems like I've found > > > a > > > great touch stone that I can use to find out what's happening in the > > > language, how it looks, what it can do for me, and I can learn how to > > > write > > > it. > > > > Another thing that the scala-lang site has is Code Examples. Code examples > > > are a really nice way for you to get a taste of how a language can solve > > > common problems, and they can give you a real sense of the flavour of the > > > language. > > > > A lot of the information for Clojure seems to be there, it's just not laid > > > out in an attractive easy to use format. Perhaps we could have a > > > fundraiser > > > to pay for a web designer to make a nice modern website that contains the > > > information in an easier to digest and more centralised way > > > > The getting started issue is an ongoing problem for Clojure. It's an issue > > > that keeps coming up in the surveys and on the mailing list. Other > > > languages are doing it really well, Scala is just a convenient example. > > > What does the Clojure community need to do to help support the creation of > > > something that is on par? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. 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