To add to Chuck's thoughts: A buyer's agent (or even a helpful broker) will be able to provide you with information on asking and actual selling prices for broker-sold boats for the model you are after. This is a huge help as there can be a large range as we know (in 2013, it was around 30% for the models I was looking at) As mentioned, many of the boats owned by those on this list are now out of the broker market - too cheap - nonetheless, the broker can still make this info available to you.
Even with a very high level of trust, every expectation you can dream of should be stated in writing, to both the broker and the surveyor. (or the seller if applicable) Good fences make good neighbours, and this is not an imposition, it protects everyone and maintains friendships. For most items, clear, friendly, communication in an email trail is fine. Surveyors/surveys are highly variable, and will not be as thorough or effective as you would like. I have read surveys while looking at boats that missed obvious problems, bent rudder shaft, (2 C&C 34s) buckled topsides at the chainplates...(several older boats with hydraulic backstay adjusters fitted) Specific known issues should be researched by the buyer and specifically referenced to the surveyor and broker - again, in writing. Forums and lists like this are fantastic sources of info, and the list members know more than surveyors, generally. (Examples would be banging kanazaki transmissions, worn folding props, rod/wire rigging, keel stub/mast step issues on 33-2, 35-3, 41, cracking keels in frozen parts of the world... - no doubt there are many many others) It is rare indeed that a surveyor will be that knowledgable or thorough with regard to a particular model. (unless he owned one, as in Chuck's case) If I were remote- buying a boat that was worth any sort of money I would make a point of inspecting it with the surveyor. You can often get a survey from the seller. If available, it makes nice light reading while you wait for your own. ;-) Already mentioned - check the paperwork for the FOB point. This is where you take title. Figure out what constitutes your acceptance of the boat's condition, document all. Already mentioned - hold back. Chuck makes an interesting point - wariness about a price drop. For someone who is handy, this might actually represent an opportunity. yards are expensive to operate and charge a lot of money, (for anything) and any sailboat can be hard to sell. Depends on the seller's frame of mind, the issue and the labour involved. (I rebuilt windstar's keel stub/maststep as much as a preventative measure as anything, and would not hesitate to buy a 33-2, 35iii, or 41 with an issue identified, provided the price had been adjusted by the C$20-30k a yard would ask for the same work.) I think the "pipe dream" when buying is the overly optimistic assessment of things like canvas, sails, upholstery/foam, prop, running rigging, galley stove, "secondary" systems and wear-out items that are normally not carefully inspected and can quickly add up to tens of thousands. (good bones are not the whole story) A surveyor can't really help much with that. Coffee's done... Dave - 33-2 windstar On Nov 23, 2016, at 12:59, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: Buying a boat from a broker without a buyer’s agent is the same as buying a house with no realtor representing you. And doing so from long distance, stacks the deck even further against you. The seller’s agent is looking out for the seller and themselves. Period. >> snip To the topic of knowledgeable brokers and surveyors, I think that most brokers tend to follow the money trail and focus their energy and expertise on what will yield the greatest return for them and their company. Many yacht brokers are passing up listings of 30-40 year old sailboats because demand is low, the potential buyers are cheapskates (yes, that includes us!) and the time and money it takes to list an old “fixer upper” may result in the broker being upside down in recovering their costs. If they take on an older boat, they’d prefer to list the 40 year old Hinckley or Morris Yacht that still sells for over $100K, which means their commission actually amounts to some return for the effort. This is why you see more and more cheap boats being represented by “discount” online brokers like POP Yachts, where the virtual brokerage is located in Florida and their “regional” sales agent collects photos from the owner and shows the boat to clients. This person may have 50-100 boats listed and may never have first-hand knowledge of any of them. From experience, the regional guy is not usually a sailor and he may have inherited the listing from a prior broker who may no longer be with the company. When I purchased Half Magic last winter, I was fortunate that my surveyor, Mike Collier from Marine Safety in Fairhaven, MA, is also a C&C Landfall 38 owner and was very excited to run a fine tooth comb over my purchase. I scheduled the survey to be performed when I could be there too. Even so, we surveyed in January with the boat out of the water and we missed a few things. >> snijp I’ve also heard of some folks getting two surveys on a boat purchase, one very thorough survey to be as informed as possible and the other as a more “general” survey that can be submitted to an insurance company to allow an older boat to be insured if there may some problems that the owner wants to fix on his own but perhaps not right away. >>snip Be wary of boats that have been listed for many months and are now listed at significantly reduced price. Those are the boats that were initially priced well if they were in good shape, but problems came up and the broker or owner didn’t want to go the expense of fixing the problem. To think that you can fix those problems cheaper than the original owner or a yard that is able to buy parts and labor at wholesale, may be a bit of a pipedream. >> snip Chuck Gilchrest S/V Half Magic 1983 35 Landfall
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