On 5/4/07, Brian Gupta <brian.gupta at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dennis,
>
> See answers below.
>
> > > That really impressed me. Perchance, can this farm be used for
> > > building OpenSolaris/SFW packages? (I think the rules say that you
> > > have to be within two revs of bleeding edge.)
> >
> > The answer is a resounding "YES".
> >
> > In fact, previous to my server room move I had been providing a
> > dual Opteron based machine to Laszlo Peter for pkgsrc work and then
> > somewhere during the move that box went down and stayed down. I was
> > going to put snv_62 into it today and then slide it back in the rack
> > for people to use. I also have a slew of different hardware types for
> > free use by the community but it seems I have done a poor job of
> > letting people know that. I'll fix that.
>
> Can maintainers, build their packages in a zone?
If they want, sure. I can not think of a reason why not.
> If so it might make
> sense to give each maintainer a segregated zone, or failing that a
> xen/vmware vm. (Or failing that an Sun4v LPAR).
Let's stick with hardware that is as real as real gets to avoid the
possibility of any package being released that has not ever been
actually tested on the real thing.
> > At the very least I want to create a tree called 5.11 because we
> > already have 5.8 and 5.9 and 5.10 that all link back to packages built
> > on Solaris 8. The old rule has been that if it works on a previous
> > edition of Solaris ( like 5.8 ) then it will work on Solaris 9 and 10.
>
> Agreed. When you build this new tree, is would be very helpful, if we
> all compared the configuration options between SFW, CCD, and
> S11-blastwave, and use the SFW OpenSolaris group to resolve any
> conflicts. (We have to set this at the door. Introduction of new
> packages should happen here. Once it has been baked in at Blastwave,
> it is a candidate for inclusion. (remmber the blastwave maintainers
> develop good reads on the styles of the individual authors. Filtering
> at this level will be ideal, especially if the Blastwave maintainers
> join the OpenSolaris maintenance teams, and keep their team members
> aprissed of the authors penchance for breaking interfaces.)
>
> Are you willing to adopt the OpenSolaris build standards for the S11
> tree? (Of course it would be fully expected that you would have input
> into these standards.)
There must be standards compliance and of course I agree with the
enforcement of these standards. That is a non-issue. The
specification of those stanards would be a community effort and we
need input from many places and *that* process will be non-trivial. We
may even need a new mail list. At the very least we can always use
the mailist server at Blastwave at users at lists.blastwave.org if need
be. See :
https://lists.blastwave.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > However we all need to see the value of integration with Solaris
> > Nevada. It should be abundantly clear that we need a new tree and that
> > most of the packages ( 1680 of them as of today ) can directly just
> > slide over with little change. Maybe a recompile but not much else.
> > The current 5.11 branch is just a link back to the 5.8 packages today.
> > A new directory with both an "unstable" and "stable" branch for 5.11
> > is needed and its trivial for me to create the branch. The build
> > infrastructure already exists and so does the community.
> >
> > What is the hold up here ?
>
> We need across the board buy-in. I will do everything I can to make
> this happen in short order.
What is your influence in that regard ?
> > I don't think it is the "best". To be the best it needs to be
> > more available to the community along with more facilities. I have a
> > pretty good thing going in there right now but the addition of more
> > build hosts for people would be a good thing. Thankfully I have been
> > working with some "Solaris Adoption" people and they have granted me
> > access to a chunk of the Sun GRID also. We just recently updated those
> > servers ( x86/AMD64 and UltraSparc ) to Solaris 10 Update 3 along with
> > patches and tools etc etc. That is not Solaris Nevada however.
>
> I misspoke. Instead of "best" please read it as the "most extensive".
No problem .. I was being pedantic.
> > I think that the Blastwave project is the "best" for users of
> > Solaris 8 and 9 but not necessary the best for Solaris 10 and Nevada.
> > We need to take a few giant leaps forward to really create what people
> > need long term such that all that software keeps working well out of
> > the box and freely. That was my dream back in 2002 and it is stiull
> > my vision in 2007. Perhaps, with a little team work, we can achieve
> > parts of this vision in the next 90 to 180 days.
>
> Perhaps. ;) But first we *all* need to come to a common vision.
OKay ... let's write a mission statement and then go from there perhaps.
> > That is a tough conversation that needs to happen right out here in
> > the open.
>
> It does need to happen out in the open, but I disagree that it needs
> to be tough.
Agreed.
> > All of the software at Blastwave has a prefix of CSW and that means
> > Community SoftWare. It is built by the community freely and openly
> > and the facilities have always been freely available year after year
> > after year and I have done *everything* that I can do personally to
> > help the process. When I see a community need I try to fill it.
>
> If this is to work, you must start thinking more as a community
> leader, as opposed to a hands on worker bee.
Necessity dictates that I do both every day.
> You efforts will be needed to set standards,
> represent your community, and coodinate blastwave's efforts within the
> OpenSolaris ecosystem. You have a good team in place, delegate. Only
> step in when their is no-one else that can do what needs to be done.
> (Realize that alot of decision making will be made jointly with the
> OpenSolaris community.)
One does not delegate to a community volunteer. One meets halfway
and then possibly further also. This is where being a worker bee is a
necessity. No one in the "team" gets paid to do this and there is no
throat to choke.
> > With things like the "How To Install Solaris 10" document I recently
> > released :
> >
> > http://www.blastwave.org/docs/s10u3_howto.html
>
> > That took a LOT of work to write and I am not done. There is more
> > work to be done there and I will extend it continually.
>
> I'm sure everyone appreciates this documentation. Unfortunately I
> think that this kind of documentation should be being done within the
> OpenSolaris docs community.
It can live there also. I simply "did it" because it was needed.
> One thing I think Sun desparately needs to address, is crediting third
> party contributors within Solaris itself. When it was just Sun doing
> the development, it was "works for hire", so no credit needed to be
> given. Now with unpaid volunteers joining the mix, Sun has to give
> credit where credit is due. (Maybe in the man pages? And.or the docs.)
That is a Sun Microsystems Inc. issue and not an OpenSolaris.org issue.
> > As for community software, in order for the massive pile of CSW
> > software to be integrated into Solaris or OpenSolaris we need to close
> > ranks a bit and stop bickering with each other.
>
> Can we agree, that Blastwave needs to be a bit more disciplined and
> patient in their approach towards getting packages into OpenSolaris?
OKay. I think that patience has been demonstrated and can continue.
> Can we also agree that the Sun's OpenSolaris team and Sun management
> need to recognize the value that Dennis, and Blastwave are providing
> to the Sun's user base, and incorporate their vision into the
> OpenSolaris "big picture"?
That again means we need to separate the Sun Microsystems Inc.
concerns and the OpenSolaris community concerns. There needs to be a
clear understanding that I am a "community" guy and always have been.
The hard fact is that Sun Microsystems Inc, her customers and VARs and
ISVs have benefitted greatly from the work done.
> > I stand by my committment that I have never walked away from. I
> > personally told the community years ago that I will do *everything*
> > that I can to ensure that open source software can be built freely,
> > openly and distributed freely to all Solaris users everywhere on any
> > architecture or version. My mission statement has been to keep
> > Blastwave alive, fed, open and free to use by the Solaris Community.
>
> At this point I think everyone needs to commit to work together. If
> you are reading this, you should respond, either commit, or say that
> they will not commit. No abstains. Yeah or Nay.
YAY
> If we can quickly reach agreement, I will draft a project proposal for
> review. We are desperately short of time. Informed decisions need to
> be made quickly. (Oxymoron I know.) ;)
YAY to that also.
Dennis Clarke
