> > Can we agreed that the current consumer of the work done through
> > OpenSolaris.org is Sun Microsystems?  (Through Solaris, and Sun's
> > downstream customers)
>
> I could not possibly disagree with this more.  However, as thoroughly
> wrong as this is conceptually, it's very close to being correct
> textually: all you need to do is change "the current consumer" to "a
> current consumer" and you'll be fine.  But that's a giant shift in
> worldview for a three-character change.

"Can we agreed that the current consumer of the work done through"

should have read:

"Can we agreed that the "primary" current consumer of the work done through"

> Those are builds of Sun's distribution.  It is not the only possible
> distribution, nor the only extant one.  If other distributors choose
> not to offer biweekly builds, that's a management choice they have
> made.  The materials they need to do so are available to them, often
> in real time.

This is all a matter of semantics. Sun is the copyright holder of most
of Solaris and all of OpenSolaris. Do not forget that. I am involved
in this community because I am an end consumer of Solaris, and want to
have an input into how the finished product comes out. I would imagine
that most of the people here have the same view.

If and when the tangible output of OpenSolaris.org differs from what
goes into Solaris Express, is when we need to revisit this topic, but
for now, I'm sticking to my guns.

> No.  Sun, like all corporations, hires mouthpieces of one sort or
> another to represent it - to investors, to customers, to the public at
> large.  There are limited circumstances in which I wear a "Sun
> representative hat" - specifically when talking with Solaris customers
> about how Solaris relates to their business problems.  Here, I'm an
> engineer, just like anyone else, and while Sun can tell me what to
> work on 40 hours a week, they can't tell me what to think, what not to
> work in in my own time, nor (subject to confidentiality agreements)
> what to say here or anywhere else.  The sooner you start seeing us as
> individuals rather than Sun's tentacles, the sooner OpenSolaris will
> make sense.

I do see you as individuals, with individual opinions. Very
opinionated, passionate, and intelligent individuals. Sun can assign
someone who is part of the OpenSolaris community to be that
representative. In fact I'm sure there are people who already have
that role, that are probably reading this thread. Unfortunately your
argument has no legal legs. You are bound by the fact that all
employees can be considered representatives of their company. (This is
why legal departments recommend that individual employees do not
communicate with the public, and instead channel all communication
through "mouthpieces" who know what is kosher to say and what isn't.)

> The belief that anyone who works for Sun is necessarily here,
> interacting with those who do not, as corporate representatives of any
> kind is one of the most toxic possible assumptions anyone can make.
> Sun has its own set of interests around Solaris, which it looks after
> by managing its own distribution and by directing its employees to
> make certain contributions to OpenSolaris.  The engineering community
> itself has a related, but not always identical, set of interests
> around where OpenSolaris goes and how it gets there.  If you believe
> that everyone is just here to serve Sun's interests, why on earth
> would you stay?

I think if the engineering group's goals were at cross purposes to
Sun's there is a major issue. I also think that only a fraction of the
Sun employees that work on Solaris are represented here. (Maybe lack
of interest, maybe revulsion at the idea of working with commoners.)

When I talk about Sun, I think of the Engineers, not Sales and
Marketing. I think of opinionated smart guys, that are trying to make
Solaris the best OS they can. With the OpenSolaris push their is the
desire by some to take the high ground, and be idealistic just like
their GPL buddies that work on Linux. Unfortunately we aren't there
yet, we still have alot of work to do to get Solaris caught up.
Understand that Sun has made a commitment to open source and the gpl,
but their short term business interests dictate that they must wait
into they have shown some market penetration.

> Actually, it's not.  Sun pays me to do certain things; participating
> in OpenSolaris development is only a small (and largely incidental)
> part of it.  Different people here may have greater or lesser
> job-related responsibilities to this community, but at the end of the
> day, Sun is paying most of its employees you see here primarily to
> make Solaris.  OpenSolaris happens to be the mechanism by which that's
> accomplished.

What ever you tell yourself to get through the day... .

> Then we have failed, and should all pack up and go home.

Speak for yourself. :)

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