> On Fri, Apr 14, 2006 at 09:46:36AM -0400, Dennis Clarke wrote:
>
>> >> 1) large scale participation of OpenSolaris developers/users.
>>
>> That is a "want" or a "need" ?
>
> I'd suggest it's desirable from a technical perspective, but essential
> for overall success.
granted , that is what community is all about I guess.
>> >> 3) compilation on recent enough Solaris version that modern
>> >> features can be enabled. Eg mplayer can use XVideo, SSE,
>> >> SMF, etc; where appropriate, amd64 bit versions, etc.
>>
>> That feels like a want. Tough to implement on sun4m.
>
> While I respect your dogged determination to continue supporting
> obsolete platforms (I loved 4m as much as anyone), the reality is that
Oh dear God save me !
You are telling me ? I am dragging this quad CPU Sparc 20 around just to
test things. Its a matter of setting standards that made sense years ago
and despite all evidence to the contrary we still build with xarch=v8
Does it make sense ? That is a toughie. Is Sun still shipping Solaris 8
and providing services to customers with sun4m ? Yes. Proabably a very
very select few. And possibly because they are stuck with something very
SBus specific and sun4m specific in their environment. Sad but true.
I don't think we should really bother with sun4m anymore.
I was just on IRC and said :
dclarke I think we need to learn from the past and design a
new solution
dclarke a pile of learning lessons can be gleaned and then
we think fresh .. look forwards years and plan for
something truely valuable
dclarke and long term
> the number of people who actually still use this platform is
> vanishingly small. Smaller still is the number who use this platform
> for any reason other than support for some obsolete but still useful
> and tremendously expensive hardware (manufacturing or scientific
> equipment). Unless the ability to support such obsolete platforms is
> essentially free - and clearly it isn't, if the hardware is not
> supported by the current OpenSolaris codebase - the cost would seem to
> outweigh the rather miniscule benefits.
microscopic. sub-atomic .. quantum level noise at best :-)
> It would seem far more valuable to target current or recently shipped
> hardware and the OpenSolaris release under current development.
Well .. I feel _strongly_ that we need to support the currently shipping
releases.
( by now people may be thinking that there may be nothing that
this guy does not feel *strongly* about :-) )
There are entirely too many people out there with large Solaris 8 systems
bases and we need to support them but give them every reason to look
forwards and say "I want the next rev of Solaris". All of this software is
easily availible on Linux. It would be of value to give the Solaris 8 user
every option to simply upgrade and keep running with no loss and a pile of
gains.
This can be done by keeping support for multiple trees of software that
targets the current Solaris user as well as the needs of the future users.
Let's give them _everything_ !
> The
> ability to support obsolete hardware and software platforms is a
> "want"; the ability to take advantage of modern features is, for a
> large subset of the target user base at least, a "need."
I agree completely.
> All that said, I'm interested in learning whether anyone thinks
> support for older hardware and software platforms could be
> accomplished for, say, the cost of typing make on an old build
> machine.
It can. I have tested that. Its no fun however. [1]
Have a look at the packages in :
http://www.blastwave.org/testing/
These all need to support sun4m on Sparc.
In fact .. Eric Boutilier created a new build of pine last night and
thus I need to test it today.
>> >> 4) No duplication/replacement of libraries already
>> >> present in the target Solaris release.
>>
>> Also super tough given the multiple versions of Solaris to be
>> supported. It may simply be a case where there will be multiple
>> trees of software. Currently Blastwave has a tree for Solaris 8
>> on Sparc and x86. This is then linked to 5.9, 5.10, 5.10.1 and
>> of course 5.11. We do not yet have a link for SchilliX etc.
>
> Even given the assumption that support for older Solaris releases (I
> find it ironic that an OpenSolaris project would desire to explicitly
> target operating systems which are not OpenSolaris-derived) is
We have an opportunity to provide a service to all Solaris users.
I can not find a reason not to.
> required, suggestions regarding virtual dependencies may be a better
> option. While these approaches are not without flaws, they do address
> at least some subset of the problem. Without yet having a full
> understanding of how such a system would work in the domain of
> OpenSolaris-based distributions, my initial impression is that,
> despite the known flaws, some type of virtual dependency structure
> would be preferable to forcing early adopters to pay a tax in the form
> of forced installation of duplicated (and often confusingly different)
> software components.
Hmmm .. you may need to expound on this "tax" idea for me.
> Perhaps we acknowledge that there is no way to completely eliminate
> (or avoid) the challenges associated with support for older releases.
I think that Sun has done all that it can do. Solaris 10 is a free
downloud and the source is open. Gee. What more can Sun do?
People need support but also need a nudge forwards.
> In that case, we must decide who must pay the associated tax. Users
> who stubbornly stick to outdated operating system releases?
Perhaps a nudge is needed of some type. A "tax" ?
> Those who are using the most current releases?
Nope. These people we support fully and completely.
> The component owners? Upstream developers? Users of a particular
> distribution or distributions?
[ question overload .. I need time to think ]
> Where the tax must be assessed depends to a large extent on the
> project's overarching goals: whom do we wish to serve?
I think Solaris users.
A subset would be Solaris 8 and 9 and 10 and SX and SXCR.
A superset would include 2.5.1 and 2.6 and 2.7. This is where
Sunfreeware shines. I think that Steve is even an expert with SunOS.
I think we need to look forwards and not backwards.
A subset that could be defined as "all shipping revs of Solaris".
>> The ultimate solution is to have a source code repository that
>> allows the code changes to be submitted and then have a package
>> produced that targets a given platform. By a build system and
>> in an automated fashion. This is what we are doing at Blastwave
>> now with the new build system.
>
> What requirements, if any, does this impose on component owners?
Possibly a lot. Let me think. I don't have easy answers but I think,
or rather I feel, that we need some code tweaks for various revs and
various implementations. This is gut feel based on experience.
Sorry, thats very heuristic as opposed to deterministic.
>> Is this a "need" or a "want"? In order to ensure that you can
>> reproduce the exact same bits at "your house" then we need to
>> completely spec out the build platform as well as patches etc.
>
> Yes, exactly.
We are on the same page precisely there. Okay cool.
>> The Blastwave build farm uses Solaris 8 as the base because we
>> can be assured that anything that builds on Solaris 8 is promised
>> to work flawlessly on Solaris 9 and 10 etc. I say promised and
>> not "assured". In the event that something does run on Solaris 8
>> but not on Solaris 9 or 10 or 11 then we need to look at the
>> source and perhaps make conditional compile tweaks.
>
> There's much more to this problem than saying "use Solaris 8" or "use
> SchilliX 0.5." Because most of the software under discussion is
> designed under the assumption that the ultimate execution environment
> will be that of the build host, a much more complete specification is
> required.
I agree fully.
A very precsie spec is required and scoping that out will take time.
> For example, what must or must not be present in
> /usr/local? /opt/sfw (or /opt/csw or /opt/nonamesoftware)? Is it
> necessary to install any or all of the most recent binary distribution
> of third-party software before building? Will the build system
> utilise a proto area, and if so, how can autotools be taught to use it
> and ignore installed bits?
Again I think that Solaris rev specific specs are required as the last
shipping release of Solaris 8 includes some bits. Solaris 9 add in a pile
more and Solaris 10 has soup to nuts in there. We need rev specific build
environments and possibly fully flushed out rev software trees.
I can expound on that later.
>> However, having said all of this, I am still bothered by what appears
>> to be a desire on the part of Sun to reproduce all of this except
>> inside Sun and for the purposes of being "Sun blessed". The only
>
> Nothing is being reproduced; existing work done in the past is being
> opened, and the discussion is focused on improvements that can be made
> in the future. As I've pointed out already, those improvements may be
> adopted from and shared with those made by existing efforts rather
> than being reproduced if that is the technically correct approach.
Let's keep plowing forwards then.
>> clear benefit being that Sun has all the money and people to do such
>> a thing that will clearly compete with its own Solaris Community
>> project. Yes, that is a combative stance but I see no evidence to
>> suggest any other posture on my part.
>
> Here's some: the number of Sun-employed engineers assigned to work on
> the Companion Software project is zero. Sun is not a single
> individual with 60,000 hands typing away to further its unified master
> goal of ruining your life.
But .. but .. but ... ( here you need to picture me smiling )
> Jonathan didn't come to us and hand us $20 million to put Blastwave
> out of business.
Thats good because it was never in "business".
Its one heck of a dead loss actually if you want to see the balance sheet.
> The questions here are
> being asked by a handful of interested engineers working mostly in our
> free (or stolen) time. Sun management's actual interest in and
> commitment to the effort, including the assignment of this phantom
> resource pool, is almost nonexistent.
OKay .. add yourself and myself into that pool.
You now have two guys willing to work forwards.
Agreed ?
--
Dennis Clarke
[1] Typical test on the Sparc 20 :
login as: dclarke
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.8 Generic Patch February 2004
Solaris 8 2/04 s28s_hw4wos_05a SPARC
Copyright 2004 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Assembled 08 January 2004
SunOS fossil 5.8 Generic_117350-28 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using keyboard-interactive authentication.
Password:
Last login: Fri Apr 14 13:58:33 2006 from 192.168.35.137
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.8 Generic Patch February 2004
Solaris 8 2/04 s28s_hw4wos_05a SPARC
Copyright 2004 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Assembled 08 January 2004
SunOS fossil 5.8 Generic_117350-28 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
$
$ echo $PATH
/usr/xpg4/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/dt/bin:/usr/openwin/bin:/usr/ccs/bin:/opt/csw/bin:/opt/csw/sbin
$ echo $SHELL
/usr/xpg4/bin/sh
$
$ /opt/SUNWspro/bin/cc -V
cc: Sun C 5.5 Patch 112760-18 2005/06/14
usage: cc [ options] files. Use 'cc -flags' for details
$ /opt/SUNWspro/bin/CC -V
CC: Sun C++ 5.5 Patch 113817-14 2005/07/19
$
bash-3.00# pkgadd -d
./pine-4.64\,REV\=2006.04.13\,sparconly-SunOS5.8-sparc-CSW.pkg all
Processing package instance <CSWpine> from
</root/pine-4.64,REV=2006.04.13,sparconly-SunOS5.8-sparc-CSW.pkg>
pine - Program for Internet News and Email
(sparc) 4.64,REV=2006.04.13,sparconly
Pine License and Legal Notices
Pine and Pico are registered trademarks of the University of
Washington. No commercial use of these trademarks may be made without
prior written permission of the University of Washington.
Pine, Pico, and Pilot software and its included text are Copyright
1989-2005 by the University of Washington.
Use of Pine/Pico/Pilot: You may compile and execute these programs for
any purpose, including commercial, without paying anything to the
University of Washington, provided that the legal notices are
maintained intact and honored.
Local modification of this release is permitted as follows, or by
mutual agreement: In order to reduce confusion and facilitate
debugging, we request that locally modified versions be denoted by
appending the letter "L" to the current version number, and that the
local changes be enumerated in the integral release notes and
associated documentation.
Redistribution of this release is permitted as follows, or by mutual
agreement:
(a) In free-of-charge or at-cost distributions by non-profit concerns;
(b) In free-of-charge distributions by for-profit concerns;
(c) Inclusion in a CD-ROM collection of free-of-charge, shareware, or
non-proprietary software for which a fee may be charged for the
packaged distribution.
Redistribution of binary versions is further constrained by license
agreements for incorporated libraries from third parties, e.g. LDAP,
GSSAPI.
The University of Washington encourages unrestricted distribution of
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"difference" files that can be applied to the University of Washington
Pine source distribution in order to accomplish bug fixes, minor
enhancements, or adaptation to new operating systems. Submission of
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licensing and the submission does not include any software which
infringes third party rights.
The above permissions are hereby granted, provided that the Pine and
Pico copyright and trademark notices appear in all copies and that
both the above copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
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By downloading the software, you represent that: 1) you are not
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This software is made available "as is", and
THE UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR
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ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
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End of Pine License and Legal Notices
## Processing package information.
## Processing system information.
5 package pathnames are already properly installed.
## Verifying package dependencies.
## Verifying disk space requirements.
## Checking for conflicts with packages already installed.
## Checking for setuid/setgid programs.
Installing pine - Program for Internet News and Email as <CSWpine>
## Installing part 1 of 1.
/opt/csw/bin/pico
/opt/csw/bin/pilot
/opt/csw/bin/pine
/opt/csw/share/doc/pine/brochure.txt
/opt/csw/share/doc/pine/mailcap.unx
/opt/csw/share/doc/pine/mime.types
/opt/csw/share/doc/pine/tech-notes.txt
/opt/csw/share/man/man1/pico.1
/opt/csw/share/man/man1/pilot.1
/opt/csw/share/man/man1/pine.1
[ verifying class <none> ]
Installation of <CSWpine> was successful.
bash-3.00#
bash-3.00# pkginfo -l CSWpine
PKGINST: CSWpine
NAME: pine - Program for Internet News and Email
CATEGORY: application
ARCH: sparc
VERSION: 4.64,REV=2006.04.13,sparconly
VENDOR: http://www.washington.edu/pine/ packaged for CSW by Eric Boutilier
PSTAMP: ra20060413213206
INSTDATE: Apr 14 2006 14:03
HOTLINE: http://www.blastwave.org/bugtrack/
EMAIL: ericb at blastwave.org
STATUS: completely installed
FILES: 16 installed pathnames
5 shared pathnames
6 directories
3 executables
11536 blocks used (approx)
bash-3.00# ls -lap /opt/csw/bin/pico /opt/csw/bin/pilot /opt/csw/bin/pine
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 268452 Apr 13 20:50 /opt/csw/bin/pico
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 265788 Apr 13 20:50 /opt/csw/bin/pilot
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root bin 4678300 Apr 13 20:50 /opt/csw/bin/pine
bash-3.00# ldd /opt/csw/bin/pico
libcurses.so.1 => /usr/lib/libcurses.so.1
libc.so.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1
libdl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1
bash-3.00# ldd /opt/csw/bin/pilot
libcurses.so.1 => /usr/lib/libcurses.so.1
libc.so.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1
libdl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1
bash-3.00# ldd /opt/csw/bin/pine
libldap-2.3.so.0 => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/libldap-2.3.so.0
libcurses.so.1 => /usr/lib/libcurses.so.1
libresolv.so.2 => /usr/lib/libresolv.so.2
libsasl2.so.2 => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/libsasl2.so.2
libsocket.so.1 => /usr/lib/libsocket.so.1
libnsl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libnsl.so.1
libgen.so.1 => /usr/lib/libgen.so.1
libssl.so.0.9.8 => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/libssl.so.0.9.8
libcrypto.so.0.9.8 => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/libcrypto.so.0.9.8
libc.so.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1
liblber-2.3.so.0 => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/liblber-2.3.so.0
libnet.so => /opt/csw/lib/sparcv8/libnet.so
libdl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1
libdoor.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdoor.so.1
libmp.so.2 => /usr/lib/libmp.so.2
bash-3.00$ TERM=xterm;LINES=24;COLUMNS=80;EDITOR=vi;export TERM LINES
COLUMNS ED
bash-3.00$
bash-3.00$
bash-3.00$ which pine
/opt/csw/bin/pine
bash-3.00$ pine
Creating subdirectory "/export/home/dclarke/mail" where Pine
will store its mail folders.
PINE 4.64 GREETING TEXT No Messages
<<<This message will appear only once>>>
Welcome to Pine ... a Program for Internet News and Email
We hope you will explore Pine's many capabilities. From the Main Menu,
select Setup/Config to see many of the options available to you. Also
note that all screens have context-sensitive help text available.
SPECIAL REQUEST: This software is made available world-wide as a public
service of the University of Washington in Seattle. In order to justify
continuing development, it is helpful to have an idea of how many people
are using Pine. Are you willing to be counted as a Pine user? Pressing
Return will send an anonymous (meaning, your real email address will not
be revealed) message to the Pine development team at the University of
Washington for purposes of tallying.
Pine is a trademark of the University of Washington.
[ALL of greeting text]
? Help E Exit this greeting - PrevPage % Print
Ret [Be Counted!] Spc NextPage
bash-3.00$ uname -a
SunOS fossil 5.8 Generic_117350-35 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20
