On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:45 AM Hiroshi Yamashita <y...@bd.mbn.or.jp> wrote:
> This kind of joseki is not good for Zero type. Ladder and capturing > race are intricately combined. In AlphaGo(both version of AlphaGoZero > and Master) published self-matches, this joseki is rare. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > I found this joseki in kata1_b40s575v100 (black) vs LZ_286_e6e2_p400 > (white). > http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/22/733340.sgf > Hi Hiroshi - yep. This is indeed a joseki that was partly popularized by AI and jointly explored with humans. It is probably fair to say that it is by far the most complicated common joseki known right now, and more complicated than either of the avalanche or the taisha. Some zero-trained bots will find and enter into this joseki, some won't. The ones that don't play this joseki in self-play will have a significant chance to be vulnerable to it if an opponent plays it against them, because there are a large number of traps and blind spots that cannot be solved if the net doesn't have experience with the position. And even having some experience is not always enough. For example, ELF and Leela Zero have learned some lines, but are far from perfect. There is a good chance that AlphaGoZero or Master would have been vulnerable to it as well. KataGo at the time of 1.3.5 was also vulnerable to it too - it only rarely came up in self-play, and therefore was never learned and correctly evaluated, so from the 3-3 invader's side the joseki could be forced and KataGo would likely mess up the joseki and be losing the game right at the start. (The most recent KataGo nets are much less vulnerable now though). The example you found is one where this has happened to Leela Zero. In the game you linked, move 34 is a big mistake. Leela Zero underweights the possibility of move 35, and then is blind to the seeming-bad-shape move of 37, and as a result, is in a bad position now. The current Leela Zero nets consistently makes this mistake, *and* consistently prefer playing down this line, so against an opponent happy to play it with them, Leela Zero will lose many games right in the opening all the same way. Anyways, the reason this joseki is responsible for more such distortions than other joseki seems to be because it is so sharp, and unlike most other common joseki, contains at least 5-6 enormous blind spots in different variations that zero-trained nets variously have trouble to learn on their own. > a very large sampling of positions from a wide range > > of human professional games, from say, move 20, and have bots play > starting > > from these sampled positions, in pairs once with each color. > > This sounds interesting. > I will think about another CGOS that handle this. I'm glad you're interested. I don't know if move 20 is a good number (I just threw it out there), maybe it should be varied, it might take some experimentation. And I'm not sure it's worth doing, since it's still probably only the smaller part of the problem in general - as Remi pointed out, likely ladder handling will be a thing that always continues to introduce Elo-nontransitivity, and probably all of this is less important than generally having a variety of long-running bots to help stabilize the system over time.
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