Hi Claude - no, generally feeding liberty counts to neural networks doesn't help as much as one would hope with ladders and sekis and large capturing races.
The thing that is hard about ladders has nothing to do with liberties - a trained net is perfectly capable of recognizing the atari, this is extremely easy. The hard part is predicting if the ladder will work without playing it out, because whether it works depends extremely sensitively on the exact position of stones all the way on the other side of the board. A net that fails to predict this well might prematurely reject a working ladder (which is very hard for the search to correct), or be highly overoptimistic about a nonworking ladder (which takes the search thousands of playouts to correct in every single branch of the tree that it happens in). For large sekis and capturing races, liberties usually don't help as much as you would think. This is because approach liberties, ko liberties, big eye liberties, shared liberties versus unshared liberties, throwin possibilities all affect the "effective" liberty count significantly. Also very commonly you have bamboo joints, simple diagonal or hanging connections and other shapes where the whole group is not physically connected, also making the raw liberty count not so useful. The neural net still ultimately has to scan over the entire group anyways, computing these things. On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:31 AM Claude Brisson via Computer-go < computer-go@computer-go.org> wrote: > Hi. Maybe it's a newbie question, but since the ladders are part of the > well defined topology of the goban (as well as the number of current > liberties of each chain of stone), can't feeding those values to the > networks (from the very start of the self teaching course) help with large > shichos and sekis? > > Regards, > > Claude > On 21-01-22 13 h 59, Rémi Coulom wrote: > > Hi David, > > You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of > problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is > still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that > the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by > very similar ladders in the opening: > http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733333.sgf > http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf > Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating > compression. > > Rémi > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing > listComputer-go@computer-go.orghttp://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go > > _______________________________________________ > Computer-go mailing list > Computer-go@computer-go.org > http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go >
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