There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: Roger Mills
1b. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: kechpaja
1c. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: Jim Henry
1d. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: R A Brown
1e. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: Charlie
1f. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2a. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
From: Lars Finsen
2b. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
From: Lee
2c. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
From: taliesin the storyteller
3a. Re: Subject- and Object-Control
From: Roger Mills
4a. Tone death
From: Nathan Unanymous
4b. Re: Tone death
From: Garth Wallace
4c. Re: Tone death
From: Patrick Dunn
4d. Re: Tone death
From: Alex Fink
4e. Re: Tone death
From: Peter Bleackley
5a. Conlang documentation
From: Eleanor Good
5b. Re: Conlang documentation
From: David Edwards
5c. Re: Conlang documentation
From: Jim Henry
5d. Re: Conlang documentation
From: Larry Sulky
5e. Re: Conlang documentation
From: Eleanor Good
5f. Re: Conlang documentation
From: Mechthild Czapp
6a. Re: Grammaticalizing the conlanging process
From: Brett Williams
7. Teresa Edgerton conlangs
From: Daniel Nielsen
8a. Re: Sino-Romance in the LLL? (was: Tonogenesis)
From: R A Brown
8b. Re: Sino-Romance in the LLL?
From: Peter Bleackley
Messages
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1a. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:40 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sunday, I was at Cofton Park in
> Birmingham, to attend the Mass of the Beatification of
> Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. In honour of the
> occasion, I'd like to propose the Cardinal's motto, "cor ad
> cor loquetur" (Heart speaks unto heart) as a translation
> excercise.
>
Kash: haniyu yaçindi haniyuwe [xa'ni(j)u ja'Sindi xani'(j)u(w)e]
haniyu: heart (fig.), soul, mind, consciousness
ya- 3s subj.
çindi to speak
-e dative case
But given that the Kash are telepaths, and engage in "heart t0 heart" speech a
lot, perhaps we could just say "haniyu haniyuwe", colloq. "hañu hañuwe"
Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "kechpaja" kechp...@comcast.net
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:42 am ((PDT))
In Karrev:
Kevuosarae taka qo takati.
Ke-vous-ara-e taka qo taka-ti
ACTIVE-speak-HABITUAL-FINITE heart to heart-OTHER
"The heart speaks to another heart"
On Sep 21, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Samuel Stutter wrote:
> In Nauspayr:
>
> Båån åbljÄh bååneq.
> (heart speak<present-still><declarative><3-person-singular, J-class-noun,
> irregular-type-"C"> heart<dative>)
>
> (And now, new and improved, the debut of:) 1st Generation Future Mancunian:
>
> Ërh spÿk h ërh, mÄh.
> (heart speak to heart <honorific>)
>
> Sam
>
> On 21 Sep 2010, at 13:38, Mechthild Czapp wrote:
>
>> In Rejistanian, this would be:
>>
>> Demna'het mi'visko demna'het'han
>> soul 3S-speak soul-ALL.
>>
>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>> Datum: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:00:51 +0100
>>> Von: Peter Bleackley <peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk>
>>> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>>> Betreff: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
>>
>>> On Sunday, I was at Cofton Park in Birmingham, to attend the Mass of the
>>> Beatification of Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. In honour of the
>>> occasion, I'd like to propose the Cardinal's motto, "cor ad cor
>>> loquetur" (Heart speaks unto heart) as a translation excercise.
>>>
>>> Khangaþyagon
>>>
>>> yagi sadre sadreakh
>>>
>>> yag- i sadre sadre- akh
>>> speak 3 heart heart recipient
>>>
>>> iljena
>>>
>>> ibreta birat
>>> spirit-speak spirit-listen
>>>
>>> Pete
>>
>> --
>> Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
>>
>> My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
>>
>>
>>
>> GRATIS: Spider-Man 1-3 sowie 300 weitere Videos!
>> Jetzt freischalten! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome
Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:49 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 6:00 AM, Peter Bleackley
<peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sunday, I was at Cofton Park in Birmingham, to attend the Mass of the
> Beatification of Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman.
njumn-Å¡am-Ä·a jej.
Newman-FAMILY.NAME-RESPECT yay
> In honour of the
> occasion, I'd like to propose the Cardinal's motto, "cor ad cor loquetur"
> (Heart speaks unto heart) as a translation excercise.
fâ-ÅÄw tu-i fâ-ÅÄw ÊÇ Åâw-o gju-zô.
emotion-faculty agent-at emotion-faculty other call-to speak-V.ACT
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (9)
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1d. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:38 am ((PDT))
On 21/09/2010 11:00, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> On Sunday, I was at Cofton Park in Birmingham,
..and on the day before I was at the prayer vigil in Hyde
Park - great occasion, full of 'hwyl', as they say say in Wales.
> to attend the
> Mass of the Beatification of Blessed John Henry Cardinal
> Newman. In honour of the occasion, I'd like to propose the
> Cardinal's motto, "cor ad cor loquetur" (Heart speaks unto
> heart) as a translation excercise.
Just a small point, however, - _loquetur_ is actually
*future* tense; "cor ad cor loquetur" = 'Heart will speak
unto heart.'
I notice, however, all the translations offered so far are
in the present tense, so I guess it's the English and not
the Latin that my fellow conlangers are translating ;)
Fortunately, the translations will not need changing as the
Blessed Cardinal's motto was actually: _Cor ad cor loquitur_.
In TAKE it is:
καÏδίο Îµá¼°Ï ÎºÎ±Ïδίο λεγε
kardío eis kardío lege
(TAKE is undergoing important revision at the moment - but
the above is unlikely to change)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (9)
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1e. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "Charlie" caeruleancent...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:09 pm ((PDT))
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, R A Brown <r...@...> wrote:
>
> Fortunately, the translations will not need changing as the
> Blessed Cardinal's motto was actually: _Cor ad cor loquitur_.
>
As the heart has the same connotation in the Senjecan culture as in today's
Western culture, there's no need to use "soul," "spirit," etc.
tsérd-os tserd-ósy-' o mhér-a:
heart-NOM.sg heart-GEN.sg-elision to speak-IND
Charlie
Messages in this topic (9)
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1f. Re: Cor ad Cor Loquetur
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:13 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:00:51 +0100, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> On Sunday, I was at Cofton Park in Birmingham, to attend the Mass of the
> Beatification of Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman. In honour of the
> occasion, I'd like to propose the Cardinal's motto, "cor ad cor
> loquetur" (Heart speaks unto heart) as a translation excercise.
Old Albic:
Cvathasa rama raman.
talk-3SG:A heart(AGT) heart-DAT
Roman Germanech:
Le cor pfarl al cor.
the heart talk.PRES.3SG to-the heart
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" lars.fin...@ortygia.no
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:42 am ((PDT))
Den 21. sep. 2010 kl. 18.06 skrev Lee:
> Lars is probably the resident expert, given the .no TLD in
> his email address. Should he wish to take on the task is up to him, of
> course.
You mean a translation of all the words in the list? I'm rather busy
now, so cannot do it until tomorrow at least.
> Meanwhile, I can give it a try, but it will be awhile before I am
> done as I am in the middle of acquiring the language enough to have
> basic conversation. (Jeg lærer norsk!) I hope to be fluent enough
> for simple conversation with distant relatives who will be visiting
> soon. (De reiser fra Norge. De snakker engelsk, men jeg vil gjerne
> snakker norsk med dem på familieselskap.)
>
> (How'd I do, Lars?)
Excellent, except for the present form where you should have an
infinitive. (Have you spotted it?)
Perhaps "i" instead of "på" (prepositions are always tricky), and the
definite form instead of the indefinite of the last word. But now I'm
being fussy.
I think you can easily translate the list with the aid of a
dictionary. No translation skill needed for that. Good luck!
LEF
Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
Posted by: "Lee" waywardwre...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:08 pm ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no> wrote:
From: Lars Finsen <lars.fin...@ortygia.no>
Subject: Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 1:40 PM
Den 21. sep. 2010 kl. 18.06 skrev Lee:
> Lars is probably the resident expert, given the .no TLD in
> his email address. Should he wish to take on the task is up to him, of
> course.
You mean a translation of all the words in the list? I'm rather busy now, so
cannot do it until tomorrow at least.
> Meanwhile, I can give it a try, but it will be awhile before I am done as I
> am in the middle of acquiring the language enough to have basic conversation.
> (Jeg lærer norsk!) I hope to be fluent enough for simple conversation with
> distant relatives who will be visiting soon. (De reiser fra Norge. De snakker
> engelsk, men jeg vil gjerne snakker norsk med dem på familieselskap.)
>
> (How'd I do, Lars?)
Excellent, except for the present form where you should have an infinitive.
(Have you spotted it?)
Perhaps "i" instead of "på" (prepositions are always tricky), and the definite
form instead of the indefinite of the last word. But now I'm being fussy.
- - - -
Yeah! I did a bit better than I expected.
I see my mistake; I think I should have said "..., men jeg vil gjerne å snakke
norsk ..."
Prepositions are beginning to cause me a little trouble. That, and
pronunciation... I wish I had started this project before last Thursday! But I
have to say, conlanging has definitely made it much easier to pick up the
language, compared to the disaster that was college German quite a few years
ago...
-- back to Lars --
I think you can easily translate the list with the aid of a dictionary. No
translation skill needed for that. Good luck!
LEF
- - - -
I could do a quick run-through for all the words I know to date. (Good
practice!) But I probably won't be able to get to it until tomorrow.
Lee
Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Norwegian word frequency chart
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:55 am ((PDT))
On 2010-09-21 23:03, Lee wrote:
> I see my mistake; I think I should have said "..., men jeg vil gjerne å
> snakke norsk ..."
You made another mistake. Is there anything in the grammars you have
access to for when one should use "å"? There's no such thing as "split
infinitives" in Norwegian. "å + infinitive" is used less often than "to
+ infinitive" in English.
> But I have to say, conlanging has definitely made it much
> easier to pick up the language, compared to the disaster that was
> college German quite a few years ago...
Ah, but if any of that German remained in your brain at all, that should
also make learning Norwegian easier :)
<evil>Have you mastered the (default) pronunciation of y, u, o, æ, ø, å
yet? <more evil>And final e?</more evil></evil>
t.
Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: Subject- and Object-Control
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:24 pm ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 September 2010 02:32, Sapthan
> <sapt...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I speak Spanish every day, and I'm not sure either :S
> >
> > But here are the translations for the sentences:
> >
> >
> I'm adding the translations in my native language French,
> for comparison:
>
>
> >
> > It hurts me to sleep.
> > *Me duele dormir.*
> >
> >
> Ça me fait mal de dormir.
>
(snip many exs.)
> Funny how French can handle all those with an infinitive
> while Spanish
> can't, despite the two languages being so similar,
> grammatically speaking. I
> wonder why that is, since Spanish does have an infinitive
> and does use it
> some cases as French does. Why not in all cases? Stylistic
> reasons?
> --
My feeling is that Spanish (and Italian too) are a little closer to (Vulgar?)
Latin usage.
Would the fact that the subjunctive (esp. the present tense*) has largely
fallen into disuse in French have anything to do with this?
(*because in so many cases it's now homonymous with the pres. indicative?)
Messages in this topic (15)
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4a. Tone death
Posted by: "Nathan Unanymous" nathanms...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:39 pm ((PDT))
This is the oppisite of tonogenisis; how does tone die? For example, how would
the classic Chinese mā má mǎ mà die?
I have a language with tones I want to convert to non-tonal.
Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Tone death
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:22 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is the oppisite of tonogenisis; how does tone die? For example, how would
> the classic Chinese mā má mǎ mà die?
>
> I have a language with tones I want to convert to non-tonal.
It's not quite the same thing, but when Japanese borrowed large swaths
of Chinese vocabulary, it ended up with a ton of homophones, since it
is not a tonal language. Lots of compounding ensued.
Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: Tone death
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:46 pm ((PDT))
Seems that compounding would be one way to get rid of tone without
introducing too much semantic ambiguity. Chinese already does this,
which is why "flat" speaking Americans can get by in Chinese, as
frustrating at is apparently is to native speakers (or so said my
Chinese speaking friend).
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:36:29 -0400, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>This is the oppisite of tonogenisis; how does tone die? For example, how would
>>the classic Chinese ma1 ma2 ma3 ma4 die?
>
> Usually quietly, with little fuss; it tends to just lose its phonemic status
> and not leave traces. There's quite little interaction in the direction
> from tone to segmental material. I can think of a couple examples of vowel
> quality changes conditioned by tone, but no language in which such a thing
> was systemic on all vowels.
>
> Tone systems can develop into pitch accent, and thence into other sorts of
> accent. Or if some tonemes were longer than others, the length could
> survive. Or if your system was actually one of register, then the phonation
> components of the register could certainly survive. Etc.
>
> Alex
>
--
I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (5)
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4d. Re: Tone death
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:47 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:36:29 -0400, Nathan Unanymous <nathanms...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>This is the oppisite of tonogenisis; how does tone die? For example, how would
>the classic Chinese ma1 ma2 ma3 ma4 die?
Usually quietly, with little fuss; it tends to just lose its phonemic status
and not leave traces. There's quite little interaction in the direction
from tone to segmental material. I can think of a couple examples of vowel
quality changes conditioned by tone, but no language in which such a thing
was systemic on all vowels.
Tone systems can develop into pitch accent, and thence into other sorts of
accent. Or if some tonemes were longer than others, the length could
survive. Or if your system was actually one of register, then the phonation
components of the register could certainly survive. Etc.
Alex
Messages in this topic (5)
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4e. Re: Tone death
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:02 am ((PDT))
staving Nathan Unanymous:
> This is the oppisite of tonogenisis; how does tone die? For example, how would
> the classic Chinese mā m� mǎ m� die?
>
> I have a language with tones I want to convert to non-tonal.
Let's assume that a sound change eliminates tones, and you end up with a
lot of homophones
ma mother
ma hemp
ma horse
The speakers might then start adding little qualifier words (I think
that Chinese languages have counters, so they could do the job) to
disambiguate
ma-person mother
ma-stuff hemp
ma-animal horse
You might have the beginnings of a noun-class system there. In a hundred
years time, students of the language will be wondering what the common
meaning of the root "ma" is, and when told that roots are essentially
meaningless until bound to the noun-class, will wonder how on earth that
came about.
Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Conlang documentation
Posted by: "Eleanor Good" hautbois_...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:36 pm ((PDT))
I've been thinking about the recent discussion on having good accessible
documentation for peoples' conlangs. I don't currently have anything online,
but I've been working on my conlang Sipalh, and it's gotten to the point
where the language contains more information than I can easily hold in my
head. I feel like going through the process of organizing what I've got so
far, in order to make it presentable, would help me internalize it better.
So I'm looking for documentation advice on two levels:
1) Where should I put it online? I don't really have spare money lying
around, so getting my own domain name or an LCS membership are not options
for me at the moment.
2) In your online conlang documenting, who would you consider the target
audience to be? Do you think any random person who stumbles across your
conlang site should be able to enjoy and appreciate it? Or is it exclusively
for other conlangers? The terminology I've been using for my own notes
probably has too much jargon for someone who's never heard of linguistics,
but it's probably laughably amateur for a "real" linguist.
Eleanor
(lurker, coming out of the shadows)
Messages in this topic (6)
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5b. Re: Conlang documentation
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:44 pm ((PDT))
I have Feayran's documentation hosted with http://www.webs.com, which is
pretty nice. I code all my own raw HTML rather than using one of their
templates, though--I seem to recall them putting ad banners on pages that
use their templates.
I'm trying to build up my site to have something for everyone--translated
texts that can be displayed with or without glosses, a reference grammar for
linguisty types, but also general information about the language's setting
and speakers and lessons for the amateur crowd. I have several friends who
are interested in the language but are not conlangers/linguists themselves,
and I always cringe when they tell me they've been going through the
reference grammar, because I'm afraid it'll scare them away.
Best,
David
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Eleanor Good <hautbois_...@hotmail.com>wrote:
> I've been thinking about the recent discussion on having good accessible
> documentation for peoples' conlangs. I don't currently have anything
> online,
> but I've been working on my conlang Sipalh, and it's gotten to the point
> where the language contains more information than I can easily hold in my
> head. I feel like going through the process of organizing what I've got so
> far, in order to make it presentable, would help me internalize it better.
>
> So I'm looking for documentation advice on two levels:
>
> 1) Where should I put it online? I don't really have spare money lying
> around, so getting my own domain name or an LCS membership are not options
> for me at the moment.
>
> 2) In your online conlang documenting, who would you consider the target
> audience to be? Do you think any random person who stumbles across your
> conlang site should be able to enjoy and appreciate it? Or is it
> exclusively
> for other conlangers? The terminology I've been using for my own notes
> probably has too much jargon for someone who's never heard of linguistics,
> but it's probably laughably amateur for a "real" linguist.
>
> Eleanor
>
> (lurker, coming out of the shadows)
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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5c. Re: Conlang documentation
Posted by: "Jim Henry" jimhenry1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:43 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Eleanor Good <hautbois_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1) Where should I put it online? I don't really have spare money lying
A wiki, such as FrathWiki or the Conlang Wikia, might minimize the
amount of work you have to do. Then there are various sites that
offer free web space in non-wiki form; David recommended webs.com, and
I've heard good things about Googlepages.
> 2) In your online conlang documenting, who would you consider the target
> audience to be?
Most of my documentation on gjâ-zym-byn is aimed at fellow conlangers,
but I keep wanting to write basic lessons aimed at people without the
linguistic knowledge needed to understand the reference grammar, and
keep putting it off while working on other things. Ideally, I'd say
one should do both; but time is limited, and conlangs are changeful.
Writing and maintaining two versions of the conlang's documentation,
in two languages or in the same language aimed at different audiences,
is more than most of us have the free time to do -- so for instance my
reference grammar in English has stayed mostly up to date, while my
basic lessons in English and reference grammar in Esperanto have
fallen years out of date.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (6)
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5d. Re: Conlang documentation
Posted by: "Larry Sulky" larrysu...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:30 pm ((PDT))
1) I also use http://www.webs.com; it suits my needs pretty well. And like
David, I code my own raw HTML.
2) I imagine my readers to be interested non-linguists with roughly a
high-school level grasp of grammar. And I assume that they are reading the
pages in order to learn the language, so the bulk of the documentation is in
a combined lesson/explanation format. For examples, see
http://larrysulky.webs.com/.
Messages in this topic (6)
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5e. Re: Conlang documentation
Posted by: "Eleanor Good" hautbois_...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:30 pm ((PDT))
I'm in a similar situation, because I have several friends who recently
found out that I'm interested in conlanging and they seemed quite impressed.
I taught them how to pronounce the lateral fricative /K/ and now one of them
frequently asks how my "snake language" is going. I want to have something
to show them that would keep it interesting for them without requiring them
to learn too much about conlanging or linguistics.
But I'm not too keen on the idea of trying to keep two separate updated
versions of everything. I guess I could try to strike a balance.
Eleanor
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:42:33 -0700, David Edwards <dedwa...@stanford.edu> wrote:
>I have several friends who
>are interested in the language but are not conlangers/linguists themselves,
>and I always cringe when they tell me they've been going through the
>reference grammar, because I'm afraid it'll scare them away.
>
>Best,
>David
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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5f. Re: Conlang documentation
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" 0zu...@gmx.de
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:10 am ((PDT))
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:34:19 -0400
> Von: Eleanor Good <hautbois_...@hotmail.com>
> An: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Betreff: Conlang documentation
> I've been thinking about the recent discussion on having good accessible
> documentation for peoples' conlangs. I don't currently have anything
> online,
> but I've been working on my conlang Sipalh, and it's gotten to the point
> where the language contains more information than I can easily hold in my
> head. I feel like going through the process of organizing what I've got so
> far, in order to make it presentable, would help me internalize it better.
>
> So I'm looking for documentation advice on two levels:
>
> 1) Where should I put it online? I don't really have spare money lying
> around, so getting my own domain name or an LCS membership are not options
> for me at the moment.
>
If you use version management software and unformatted text, you can create a
gist for your conlang. I did so with the data on rejistanian:
http://gist.github.com/101728
Or get a blog and put the conlang information into static pages.
> 2) In your online conlang documenting, who would you consider the target
> audience to be? Do you think any random person who stumbles across your
> conlang site should be able to enjoy and appreciate it? Or is it
> exclusively
> for other conlangers? The terminology I've been using for my own notes
> probably has too much jargon for someone who's never heard of linguistics,
> but it's probably laughably amateur for a "real" linguist.
>
Someone who stumbled across it, probably searched for something related to it
and has a certain interest in language and linguistic, otherwise, he would not
be there. Just my 0.02 Kitivalha
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
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Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: Grammaticalizing the conlanging process
Posted by: "Brett Williams" mungoje...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:51 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Jim Henry <jimhenry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 1. a particle indicating the following is a nonce word
As you mentioned Lojban has this, "za'e".
> 11. an interjection saying "I didn't understand the following
> word/phrase", responding and partly quoting a previous speaker
In Lojban this is "ki'a", but actually it comes after repeating what
wasn't understood, like "(thing you're confused about) ki'a".
> 13. a conjunction that forms an utterance which corrects an error in a
> previous utterance: "replace the erroneous text to my left with the
> corrected text to my right".
My friend Daniel Brockman invented a construction for this in Lojban.
It hasn't been officially accepted (the official wheels of Lojban
grind quite slowly) but its use is fairly widespread. The form is:
"lo'ai (incorrect text) sa'ai (correct text) le'ai", but you can leave
off one or the other if you think it would be obvious. Before Daniel
invented that, IRC Lojban had unofficially adopted the programming
lingo "s/incorrect/correct/".
> It seems that one could use these particles to manage the conlanging
> and conlang-learning process, perhaps in a way similar to Kalusa but
> where the metaconlanging particles themselves allow you to do much of
> what the Kalusa engine did with simpler text-search tools. For
> instance, supposing "nwa" is the nonce-word introducer, if you see an
> unfamiliar word "sevlam", you can find the first time it was used and
> the gloss its coiner offered by searching the chat logs or archives of
> the discussion group for "nwa sevlam". And if "xu" is the particle
> introducing new senses of existing words, you could then search the
> archives for "xu sevlam" to find the first time it was used in each
> additional sense it might have acquired over time.
Based on my experience with Lojban, I would not expect this to be the
case at all. :) I try constantly to get people to say "za'e" before
nonce words, and I have convinced hardly anyone to do so consistently.
I would suggest also a construction meaning "wait, did you just make
up that word without marking it as nonce?" :D
<3,
la stela selckiku
aka
mungojelly
aka
bret-ram
aka
veret'he
aka
brett
Messages in this topic (6)
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7. Teresa Edgerton conlangs
Posted by: "Daniel Nielsen" niel...@uah.edu
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:14 pm ((PDT))
I just picked up a novel (The Hidden Stars) by Teresa Edgerton (pseudonym
Madeline Howard, http://teresaedgerton.com/) at a used book clearance for
1usd. It contains some nice con-names for persons and places. In addition,
here are the excerpts I could find for what looks like a Celtic-like
language used in much of the book (later on in the book names from other
cultures, esp. Scandinavian-ish, seem to make an appearance; one character
is named Kivik, which, thanks to Peter Bleackley, I can only think of now as
"pepper" :p). Has anyone here read her books, or is anyone familiar with the
language?
Lledrion (elemental spell) of wind
Nésadach anadi duidon!
Nésadach anadi galadon!
Nésadach ôni anadi ellidon ei odeidon,
ei deinach ôni uilé riholem éireamhóinen!
Resistance spell
Anadi! Omach nad!
émiras deinna né nelo navüs, bas oma nad.
Lullaby (in the "Old Tongue")
Shenana, beichlin
Shenana, beich ilthalnen
Shenana, beich-sin
Shenanar uiléthani sillüer.
Inner voice
Hanòg domendeth amissa abhoran vòragol. Ephësien! Ephësien!
Spell to ignite peat
Hanemh féalen, perifehlim éma üli.
Various words
béanath: charm of blessing
annifath: very slow-working, insidious spell
corridrüis: door-stone
waethas: dubious sorcery
yfarrian: day's waning
anoë: twilight hour
malanëos: hour of utter darkness
wyvaerun: large, fierce eagle-like creatures, bird-serpent hybrids
duenin: protection
güwelan: healing
theroghal: transformation
désedh: making
Furiádhin: the Furies, the Mutated Ones
shibéath: illusion spell
Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Sino-Romance in the LLL? (was: Tonogenesis)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:23 pm ((PDT))
On 21/09/2010 15:16, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[snip]
> OnTue, 21 Sep 2010 10:56:06 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
>
>> Yep - it doesn't seem to me that this small ethnic
>> group would impinge much, if at all, on the history of
>> the world at large. Rather one wonders if they would
>> have survived any more than IE-speaking Tocharians
>> did. But that's another matter.
>
> Yes. While the survival of Latin in a mercenary garrison
> in western China is not very likely, it is at least not
> impossible.
One of the main problems, as I see it, is that Roman
soldiers captured by Parthians and ending up as mercenaries
in western China will all be _men_. If they want to produce
progeny they will have take wives or lovers from native
population; in such situations surely the mother's language
is most likely to be the L1 of the children. If Latin is to
take root firmly it seems to me that the Parthians would
need to include a goodly number of female camp followers
(i.e. prostitutes & mistresses - legionaries were not allow
to marry) together with the soldiers and for the whole lot -
men and woman - to end up together in that garrison in
western China.
> And what regards Tocharian - who says it was dead in the
> LLL?
True. Now just where have those Tocharians finished up?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"Ein Kopf, der auf seine eigene Kosten denkt,
wird immer Eingriffe in die Sprache thun."
[J.G. Hamann, 1760]
"A mind that thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language".
Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Sino-Romance in the LLL?
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:52 am ((PDT))
staving R A Brown:
> One of the main problems, as I see it, is that Roman
> soldiers captured by Parthians and ending up as mercenaries
> in western China will all be _men_. If they want to produce
> progeny they will have take wives or lovers from native
> population; in such situations surely the mother's language
> is most likely to be the L1 of the children. If Latin is to
> take root firmly it seems to me that the Parthians would
> need to include a goodly number of female camp followers
> (i.e. prostitutes & mistresses - legionaries were not allow
> to marry) together with the soldiers and for the whole lot -
> men and woman - to end up together in that garrison in
> western China.
>
Well, they weren't officially allowed to marry, but the Roman definition
of marriage was quite flexible, and quite a lot had "contunerbales" (if
I remember the word correctly). Literally it means "tent-mates", but it
essentially means "unofficial wives".
Anyway, once captured by the Parthians and working as mercenaries in
China, they probably wouldn't have been too bothered about that
particular element of army regulations any more.
We could postulate that their Chinese wives learned Latin out deference
to their husbands - alternatively, they could speak a Sino-Latin pidgin
to each other, and the children could grow up speaking a creole, but I
think that's a little way from what Jörg had in mind.
>> And what regards Tocharian - who says it was dead in the
>> LLL?
>
> True. Now just where have those Tocharians finished up?
>
Wandering the earth in small bands, never settling in one place after a
prophet urged them to abandon their cities to avoid the depredations of
Ghengiz Khan.
Pete
Messages in this topic (5)
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