There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Case Inflection Development
From: Douglas Koller
1.2. Re: Case Inflection Development
From: John Lategan
2a. TECH: HTML entities in Emails (was: Re: TAKE revision - latest)
From: Carsten Becker
3a. Re: OT : endos vs entos
From: Tim Smith
3b. Re: OT : endos vs entos
From: Philip Newton
3c. Re: OT : endos vs entos
From: Matthew Turnbull
Messages
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1.1. Re: Case Inflection Development
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" lao...@comcast.net
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:15 am ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roman Rausch" <ara...@mail.ru>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 5:15:32 AM
Subject: Re: Case Inflection Development
>> "Jan z'n hond" is a perfectly correct
> > way to translate "John's dog" and literally does mean "John his dog".
> >interestingly, an analog construction has developed in the egyptian dialect
>>of arabic.
>Not to forget Quenya:
>koarya Olwe 'Olwe's house' (koa 'house', -rya 3rd sg. poss.)
Or Hungarian:
Olwe háza - Olwe his house
Péter könyve - Peter his book
(-a, -e, -ja, -je - his/her/its)
You can ratchet it up with the dative:
Olwének a háza - to Olwe the his house
Péternek a könyve - to Peter the his book
Kou
Messages in this topic (39)
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1.2. Re: Case Inflection Development
Posted by: "John Lategan" jla...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:38 am ((PDT))
2010/10/20 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com>
> On 20 October 2010 08:16, John Lategan <jla...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I dont think its parallel because "se" doesn't resemble any Afrikaans
> > pronoun.
> > Hy, hom, sy = he, him, his ; Sy, haar, haar = She, her, her
> >
> I've read it was just an unstressed form of "sy", which got generalised to
> all genders and numbers as a possessive marker. Is that so unrealistic?
> (also, saying "se" doesn't resemble any Afrikaans pronoun is a bit
> exaggerated. The difference between "se" and "sy" is only one vowel!)
>
>
Ok. Vowels. Fair enough. Point taken.
> "Ze" is just an unstressed form of "zij". Why can't "se" be an unstressed
> form of "sy", in the same way?
>
>
Because its accepted, even grammatical in Dutch, but not at all in
Afrikaans. Ever.
(in Afrikaans Jy, Hy, Sy are unstressed. Jý, Hý, Sý are stresed :Þ )
I still think - looking at other Germanic constructions and considering the
time of Afrikaans' birth - that this was probably something the Dutch
brought along with them, rather than a separate/parallel development.
And Afrikaans has lost all case distiction anyway (except "subject" and
"object" in pronouns, as in English). It doesn't even do the "der dem
den des" in articles like German (and less commonly in Dutch)
JOHN
Messages in this topic (39)
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2a. TECH: HTML entities in Emails (was: Re: TAKE revision - latest)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" carb...@googlemail.com
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:15 am ((PDT))
What I quoted from Henrik's mail below (I've had people complaining
that their mail clients bork interleaved quotes, so I've decided to only
top-post from now on) is also how things appear on the Conlang-L page.
If you look at the HTML source code there you'll see that "&" has been
recoded to "&", thus the entities do not resolve into the characters
they're supposed to point to. It has happened several times before, and
it's kind of a nuissance to sometimes see posts riddled with these,
however now that I've checked on the Conlang-L main page, I see it is
not necessarily always an issue with my mail program (Thunderbird 3.1).
I don't know what to do about it, I assume the people for whom it
happens used a web-based interface which mangles things when they've
sent their mail. If you received the original e-mail OK, kudos to your
host, browser or email software for de-mangling.
Carsten, slightly disgruntled.
Am 20.10.2010 14:45, schrieb Henrik:
> PoorΙωσήφΠεάνου!
--
Ayeri Grammar (under construction): http://bit.ly/9dSyTI (PDF)
Der Sprachbaukasten: http://sanstitre.nfshost.com/sbk
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: OT : endos vs entos
Posted by: "Tim Smith" tim.langsm...@verizon.net
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:44 am ((PDT))
On 10/20/2010 6:32 AM, R A Brown wrote:
> On 19/10/2010 21:59, Matthew Turnbull wrote:
>> I've been poking around the net, and I can't seem to come
>> up with the difference between the greek combining
>> prefixes endo- and ento-, I've gotten the impression that
>> both mean "inside" endo- is somewhat ellative and ento-
>> is allative, but that seems a bit off to me.
>
> It is a bit off.
>
> endo- <-- ένδον _endon_ (adverb) = within, inside.
>
> ento- <-- έντος _entos_ (preposition) = within, inside
>
> Just to confuse the issue, _endon_ was occasionally used with a genitive
> case just like a preposition, and very occasionally _entos_ was used as
> an adverb :)
>
> Neither Greek word has an ellative or allative meaning; they just mean
> "inside" (inessive) - one being an adverb and the other a preposition.
>
> The reason why you haven't been able to come up with a difference in
> meaning between the two prefixes is simple: there ain't one :)
>
<delurk>
Ray, I'm sure you're right about the point at issue. (I don't know
enough about Greek to be entitled to an opinion.) But...
<nitpick>
I think both of you are misusing the terms "ellative" and "allative".
The former isn't even a real word, AFAIK (it sounds to me like a
conflation of "illative" and "elative" (see below)), and the latter is
real but irrelevant to the point under discussion, if I understand that
point correctly.
My understanding is that these terms, as they are used in describing,
e.g., Finnish, are members of a group of six "local cases" (that is,
cases whose core meanings have to do with location). Within this group,
there are two cross-cutting distinctions: "static" (referring to a
stationary or ongoing location) vs. "dynamic" (referring to motion,
either to or from a location), and "interior" (referring to location
within some sort of enclosed or bounded space) vs. "exterior" (referring
to location at either a dimensionless point or a general "place" without
specific boundaries). The whole group is:
interior:
static:
inessive (in)
dynamic:
illative (into)
elative (out of)
exterior:
static:
adessive (at)
dynamic:
allative (to)
ablative (from)
The more general term "locative" often covers the territory of both
adessive and inessive.
Of course, I'm oversimplifying terribly; in many languages whose
grammars are traditionally described using some or all of these terms,
the cases referred to have a wider range of uses than my quick-and-dirty
definitions would imply (an extreme example being the Latin "ablative").
It sounds to me as if the terms you really want are "elative" and
"illative".
</nitpick>
</delurk>
- Tim
Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: OT : endos vs entos
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:32, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> ento- <-- ����� _entos_ (preposition) = within, inside
�����, oxytone, no?
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: OT : endos vs entos
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:05 am ((PDT))
@ Ray : thank you very much
@ Tim : yeah, I misspelled elative and illative is rather what I meant,
thanks
Messages in this topic (5)
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