As a member of the LGBT community, my view (personal, from talking to others, and from votes in local contra dances in Western Massachusetts) is it's very good to have a consistent term that isn't inherently gendered.
After local debate and dance-specific polls, we've been using larks and robins/ravens here since about 2018, and I think it's been a big improvement over ladies/gents. Larks and robins are my personal preference, since it's what everyone here is used to, and I at least don't have enough bird knowledge to get confused about robins or larks having some inherent gendering. I don't have any cultural stance against positional calling, but the confusion of "lefts allemande right" seems a lot worse than learning new terms. Thanks, Gabrielle > On Feb 9, 2023, at 13:45, Jim Thaxter via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Just a thought, but has anyone checked with the lgbtq community about what > terms they would like to have used? > > Another thought, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the terminology > issue had been discussed thoroughly some time ago and the decision had been > made to go with the birds. I don’t remember seeing or hearing about a general > survey sent out to all the CDSS affiliates or any other general list of dance > groups around the country or world vetting that decision > > Personally, I’m exploring positional calling. Just my gut feeling, but I > think fewer people would be challenged by right/left directional calls than > by being called bird names. > > Jim Thaxter > Columbia, MO > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 6:31 AM Amy Cann via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > Since no one else has mentioned this, I'll just say that my entire > personal difficulty with birds comes from fairy tales and ornithology. > > When we say "robin" we are mostly thinking about that bird with the > "red breast", right? Not something kinda reddish-brownish? That's the > male. In my childhood I read any number of books with > anthropomorphised birds, and Mister Robin Redbreast was male. In a > bunch of the stories there was also small, sweet-singing female lark. > > Add to that that in the states the robin is a different bird from in > the UK, and much larger, I've got two good reasons to think of the > robin as being the "male" role. My brain weighs the imagery and > memories against that silly little detail of starting with "R" or "L" > and defaults obstinately to the exact wrong conclusion every time. > EVERY time. It's somewhat maddening. But "Ravens" was even worse, > because ravens are black and men in formal clothing dress in black, so > I guess things are better now?? > > Whew. Change is hard. > > On 2/9/23, Peghesley via Contra Callers > <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > > Bree, I’m making the same change as well and am calling without reference to > > role and don’t need bird terms. Louise Siddons’ position is a compelling > > one. > > > > Peg Hesley > > www.peghesley.com <http://www.peghesley.com/> > > > > Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition > > > >> On Feb 8, 2023, at 7:04 PM, Bree Kalb via Contra Callers > >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I made the same changes Chrissy did and for the same reason. I think it > >> was 4-5 years ago when I switched from M and W to Gents and Ladies. And > >> it seems to me that almost all the local callers did the same. > >> > >> ( Now I’m calling without reference to gender or role. Louise Siddons > >> booklet “Dance the Whole Dance” from CDSS describes well what many of us > >> are learning to do.) > >> > >> If it matters, my dance community is in a progressive/liberal area, so > >> calling styles here might be different than in other places. > >> > >> Bree Kalb > >> Carrboro, NC > >> > >> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers > >> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > >>> > >>> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session in > >>> which she called dances as she called them at different times in her > >>> career. In it, she talked about how, at one point, she and other female > >>> callers were insisting on the term "women" because they weren't ladies, > >>> and then several years later they were insisting on the term "ladies" > >>> because that was understood to be the name of a role. > >>> > >>> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a time > >>> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the terms > >>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role. > >>> > >>> Jacob > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers > >>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra > >>>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my > >>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Tony Parkes > >>>> > >>>> Billerica, Mass. > >>>> > >>>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/> > >>>> > >>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century > >>>> > >>>> (available now) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Mary Collins <native...@gmail.com <mailto:native...@gmail.com>> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM > >>>> To: Jeff Kaufman <j...@alum.swarthmore.edu > >>>> <mailto:j...@alum.swarthmore.edu>> > >>>> Cc: Tony Parkes <t...@hands4.com <mailto:t...@hands4.com>>; Joe > >>>> Harrington > >>>> <contradancer...@gmail.com <mailto:contradancer...@gmail.com>>; > >>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin') > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> mary > >>>> > >>>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who > >>>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about > >>>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers > >>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay? I'd be > >>>>> interested to read it. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Jeff > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers > >>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe Harrington wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the > >>>>>> > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women" but rather using > >>>>>> > "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching roles was ok, since > >>>>>> > nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in casual > >>>>>> > conversation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Where was this, Joe? And are you talking about contra callers (rather > >>>>>> than ECD)? I can only speak about the NYC area in the 1960s and early > >>>>>> ’70s, and New England starting in the late ’60s and continuing to the > >>>>>> present. In both regions, square/contra callers (contras were a > >>>>>> subcategory of square dance until around 1975) universally used > >>>>>> “gents/ladies.” (I believe ECD teachers have always used “men/women,” > >>>>>> presumably emulating Playford and Cecil Sharp.) AFAIK, northeastern > >>>>>> callers pretty consistently used “gents/ladies” until some of them > >>>>>> started to move away from gender-related terms. Tolman and Page’s > >>>>>> Country Dance Book (1937) uses “gents/ladies,” as do most of the other > >>>>>> standard American dance books from the 1900s to the 1950s (a few, > >>>>>> aimed at schoolteachers, use “boys/girls”). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I know of no region where callers changed from “men/women” to > >>>>>> “gents/ladies.” I know that some callers, beginning I think in the > >>>>>> ’80s, changed from “gents/ladies” to “men/women,” feeling that > >>>>>> “gentlemen” and “ladies” smacked of classism. (One female caller, in > >>>>>> an essay titled “I am not a lady,” requested that other callers not > >>>>>> use her contra compositions if they adhered to “gents/ladies.”) As an > >>>>>> amateur (= lover) of dance history, I would like to know about past > >>>>>> changes of which I was unaware. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tony Parkes > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Billerica, Mass. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> www.hands4.com <http://www.hands4.com/> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (available now) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > >>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > >>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to > >>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > >>>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >>> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to > >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > >>> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > >> <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > >> <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > > > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
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