"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the norm."
When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's role in the standard way? Jeff On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that > indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially true if I have > to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm > pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or > both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all that aside, if you and > your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than > ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one. > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using > the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd > almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is > symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around > the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm, > bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around > each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it almost never > happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady. I'm > not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it with a > particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it first > and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our > neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we > swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an > item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior > change... > > In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're > happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme > to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of > disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the > dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty > great in other ways. > > The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where > the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place > where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people actually teach it > this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's terrible, because > their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which, > well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they > try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any > chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can > either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull > my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom > hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it > usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark. > > One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no > communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the > lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire > length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to > provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if they > are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light > enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more > connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only > pull forward. > > --jh-- > > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this >> email thread and observations. >> >> Short and simple: >> A "barrel hold" swing: >> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his >> left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged >> in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things >> in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer. >> >> In dance, >> -Julian Blechner >> >> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the >>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that >>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the >>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is >>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is >>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things >>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm >>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if >>> I were just learning this swing. >>> Becky >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < >>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for >>> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! Though what I >>> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that >>> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>> >>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message: you >>> say when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting >>> with (visual at >>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >>> ) >>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are >>> holding just above the elbow. >>> >>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left >>> hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in >>> this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.) >>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>> >>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>> Starts at 3:18. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>> >>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, >>> that in this video referenced by Allan - >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 >>> <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in the photo >>> I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the >>> Lark's arm? >>> >>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of >>> the two dancing partners? >>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm >>> still be above the Lark's? >>> >>> Thanks all! >>> Kat K in Halifax >>> >>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>> Hi Kat, >>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you >>> mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened >>> Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart. >>> >>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and >>> love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance >>> at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it! >>> >>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it >>> really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough >>> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt >>> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it >>> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just >>> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>> >>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem >>> is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People >>> misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight >>> then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it >>> not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>> >>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot >>> BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and >>> weight. >>> >>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive >>> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then >>> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - >>> maybe I shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >>> afford to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing >>> at high speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >>> just slow the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >>> their own weight or fall over. >>> >>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you will find >>> it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>> >>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem to do >>> it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes some getting >>> used to. >>> >>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a Ceilidh Swing >>> (http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you could >>> always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same principle, >>> but further apart so no bodily contact. >>> >>> Happy dancing, >>> John >>> >>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 >>> 940 574 >>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies and lack >>> of physical air space between them. The huge difference between a swing in >>> contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing dance with someone, >>> is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with EVERY >>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to dance. >>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than saying >>> yes to one person. >>> >>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our group a >>> few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their contra dance line >>> specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most important >>> intervention was, of course, to establish a code of conduct which we used >>> to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he would not agree >>> to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but it’s always been >>> women who have said this to me over the years), when they come to a dance >>> not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, it is asking quite >>> a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with whoever comes at them. I >>> am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might make contra feel >>> safer, especially for new dancers. >>> >>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>> difference. >>> >>> Becky >>> >>> >>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold >>> feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a ballroom hold >>> feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>> >>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in our minds >>> with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our culture? >>> >>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, crossed >>> arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own intimacy to me, >>> though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space - though I >>> wouldn't say the default) >>> >>> Is it something else? >>> >>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a solution to >>> an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset might entail? >>> >>> In dance, >>> Julian Blechner >>> He/him >>> Western Mass >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to >> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >
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