----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----
Hi Larry,
I far prefer grass over hard surfaces, it's much easier on equipment.
However, I can understand what you
mean about the mud.
My field has lots of grass and never gets to the mud stage but my
ranch is hard clay in the summer and
mud in the winter. I've gotten my boot stuck in it before and had to pull
my foot out of it and then pull the
boot out with both hands. (All while trying to balance on the other foot.)
Luckily, most of the ranch is grass but that orchard is H--- in the
winter time!
Bob
Larry wrote:
> ----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following
any advice in this forum.]----
> Last winter in a state of stupidity, I landed 93405 on a dirt strip.
Turned out it was sticky clay.
> After surveying the situation, and waiting about four hours for the mud
to dry a little, we attempted a
> take off. I let her roll until about 45 MPH, and then hauled back on
the yoke. I had previously
> determined the point beyond which I would abort the attempt. Just
before point of no return, she lifted
> off in ground effect. I held her there, and carefully gained a little
speed as I lowered the nose. As
> luck would have it, the strip sloped down, and the obstruction at the
end of the strip was a five ft.
> fence. (all of these things were taken into consideration prior to the
attempt) Additionally, beyond the
> fence, the ground abruptly sloped down for near 200 ft. drop in
elevation. I had never attempted a short
> field take off before, but had read everything I could about it. (Thanks
to everyone on the list who
> periodically talked about such take-offs) After lift off, we traveled
another 100 yards before speed was
> up, and she started to climb out. Cleared the end of the runway by
about 50 ft. I've never landed or
> taken off on grass, but unless the grass was really long, I doubt it
would be as demanding a takeoff as
> that damn mud. For what it's worth.
>
> Larry
>
> David wrote:
>
> > ----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following
any advice in this forum.]----
> > Very interesting! But what about soft grass runways. There's one near
me
> > where acceleration is very sluggish until I get the nosewheel light.
> > Does that mean I should be very glad there are no obstacles?
> >
> > David
> > N6359V
> >
> > Greg Bullough wrote:
> > >
> > > ----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before
following any advice in this forum.]----
> > > At 05:21 PM 10/15/00 -0700, Larry Wilkins wrote:
> > > >----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before
following any
> > > >advice in this forum.]----
> > > >Ok, I've gotta jump in here with both feet. There is no way the
drag is
> > > >less with all three wheels on
> > > >the ground. Not only do you have the friction with the air, but
you've
> > > >got the friction of the bearings
> > > >and brake drag.
> > >
> > > What about the difference in induced drag with the wing at or near
zero angle
> > > of attack, vs. when it's trying to lift the airplane?
> > >
> > > Having tried it both ways a) early lift off into ground effect and
b) hold
> > > it on
> > > the ground for about 1000 feet of runway, (b) seems to result in
having more
> > > E in the airplane upon givng a haul on the old yoke.
> > >
> > > > Yes, I suspect the initial climb out at 85 mph would look good,
but, if
> > > > there are trees
> > > >at the end of that thar runway, you'd best bring her off at 70-75,
and
> > > >look for that best rate (or
> > > >angle) of climb speed. Additionally, after you've climbed a
hundred feet
> > > >or so, all that forward
> > > >velocity will have disappeared and you'll be climbing out like the
rest of
> > > >us, only we'll be in front
> > > >of you and higher up.
> > >
> > > I read an interesting discussion on this question of obstacle
clearance
> > > techniques a while back. Now I can't recall if it was a Ron Machado
or
> > > Howard Fried piece. Anyway, the point made was that the
conventional,
> > > accelerate to Vy, rotate, and hold Vy, until clearance, then
establish
> > > Vx is a BOOK technique. In other words, it may or may not be the
> > > most effective in a given plane. The author made a rather good
argument
> > > that, in most cases, the zoom technique may actually get you over
the
> > > obstacle at a higher altitude. His reasoning for why it wasn't
taught is
> > > that, as a technique, it is harder and demands that a student pilot
have
> > > too fine a feeling for the airplane... ...if you don't end that
zoom, you WILL
> > > do a departure stall!
> > >
> > > I tried a standard soft-field takeoff in the 'Coupe the other day,
too. You
> > > know, full back elevator, hold the nose off, get into ground effect
ASAP,
> > > and establish Vx before departing. Doing that resulted in a rather
dismal
> > > altitude over the far end of the runway in comparison to a
conventional
> > > takeoff.
> > >
> > > We know that the Ercoupe wing readily builds up drag at low speeds
and
> > > high angles of attack. We see it when we get slow on final. The
behavior
> > > of my plane on a soft field departure suggests to me that the act of
holding
> > > the nosewheel off, lifting early, then running along in ground
effect is
> > > consuming a whole lot of E along the way. Also, I've noticed that
the
> > > practical best rate of climb speed deteriorates very quickly with
increased
> > > AoA. There's about 5MPH difference between climbing like crazy
according
> > > to the VSI (i.e. better than 500FPM at around 1200 pounds) and only
about
> > > 200FPM. Again, that suggests to me that the wing REALLY starts
getting
> > > draggy when asked to lift at lower airspeeds.
> > >
> > > So I'm not convinced that there isn't something to be gained from
leaving the
> > > wing 'turned off' (i.e., keeping the angle of attack and thus
induced drag
> > > low)
> > > until building up a good chunk of speed isn't going to result in
ending up
> > > higher
> > > than getting to a lower V-speed and flying off right away.
> > >
> > > It may also be that with the luxury of the extra room to accelerate,
the
> > > picture
> > > is different than if I were trying to clear that 50 foot standard
tree (how
> > > does
> > > the FAA manage to persuade trees to be exactly 50 feet high?) from a
> > > paltry 1100 feet of asphalt.
> > >
> > > Greg
> > >
> > > Please start using [EMAIL PROTECTED] to get in touch with me. It is
> > > my PERMANENT e-mail address!
> > >
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