Sorry I stressed you out reading it. ;) Us vs. them? Yeah, to an extent. Newbies are WELCOMED!! They just have to stick around to be accepted. We run beginners tracks for attendees, and beginner tracks for speakers to welcome them. We have a session just for newbies to let them know how things work, etc.
As for the other us v. them, the only things I can see are the goons vs. this one woman (she didn't follow chain of command), and this one woman vs. the other female attendees, and I am not going there. Not being suicidal and all. :) As for vague and varied norms, yup. Inside such a large community, you will have smaller groups which have their own ideas about appropriate. When you get that big, it's impossible to stop. And we want the groups, as they give different people groups which fit their ideals, ideas, feelings, need for inclusiveness with like minded people, etc. So will one group offend another? Yup. We try to mediate, make it not a big deal. Most people understand, discuss it, ask for understanding, etc. Most of the time it works. Sometimes we have an issue. Then it goes up the chain. Am I offended or upset by this lady? A bit offended. We work hard to be inclusive, and to be welcoming. I really don't think we promote a rape culture, or that we denigrate or minimalize/marginalize females. Is she welcome to her opinion, her ideas, her thoughts? Of course. Can we disagree, and be civilized about it? Of course. (even though she's wrong.) ;) Again, I just think the way she went about it, and the way she dismissed aspects of this culture/group/org was a bit dismissive, and a bit wrong headed. Sorry if I came off a little strong. Working on 3 hours sleep, trying to pack to go home. Joshua On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Alex Hillman <dangerouslyawes...@gmail.com>wrote: > I read this whole thing and apart from it being a stressful story to read, > one thing stood out to me: > > I think that the problem here isn't (*just*) the issue of sexual > harassment (or the vague and varied social norms around it). > > It's that that there is an "us vs them" to the story. Multiple "us vs. > them's" in fact. And those "us vs. them" problems were, at least from this > story, left unresolved. > > ANY time there's an "us vs. them", there's room for conflict. Varied > social norms, misunderstandings, and if things escalate - the kind of > interaction that's been described here. > > Anything done to resolve the conflict without resolving the "us vs them" > means that you've just dug one hole to fill another and, truthfully, not > actually resolved the reason for the conflict. > > Conflict resolution isn't easy no matter what the topic. I'm really > enjoying this thread, I hope more people can chime in with stories. > > -Alex > > -- > /ah > indyhall.org > coworking in philadelphia > > On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Joshua Marpet wrote: > > I'd like to chime in on this, as we just had an issue here. > > "Here" right now is Las Vegas, where we just finished the week of InfoSec. > BsidesLV, Black Hat, and Defcon just completed out here, and so the most > prestigious, and the largest Hacker conferences in the world are now done > for this year (17k attendees). I was the Secretary of the Board for > BsidesLV, and a participant for Defcon. I am always involved in some way > or another with Defcon, having spoken for the last 2 years, and being a > reserve speaker goon this year. Thankfully, they didn't need me. (Which > was good, cause I was still running around like a chicken with its head cut > off!) > > The Vegas hacker cons always have a heavy contingent of "family" feel to > them. Defcon is often described as the con where you find the 10,000 best > friends you never knew you had. We have clubs dating back 20 years, > friendships, marriages, divorces, and tight ties to each other. > > But to join, to belong? You have to prove yourself. Show up more than > once, be willing to learn, willing to teach, willing to laugh, and willing > to help. Think of it as a pop-up coworking space for a week, and you'd be > on a pretty good track. Just as with all groups, there is hazing. There > is NO sexual harassment allowed. Do people cross the line? Yup. Do > people come pretty damn close? yup. Is it punished? oh hell yeah. > > Our security groups are called "Goons". Our security goons are a pretty > rough and ready crowd. That includes the women goons. They joke at levels > that are always borderline. Most of them work close to 20 hours a day to > watch over us, and they do a damn good job. It's stressful. That's why > they joke, to de-stress. Also, to haze new goons. If you can handle the > jokes from them, it means you won't flip out on some attendee or press who > ask really silly things, and do really stupid things, especially while > drunk. > > Last year, there was a goon "Bribe card". If you did all the things on > the card, you got a coin, and another card. coin=challenge coin, BTW. One > of the items on the card was, "Get a woman to flash a goon." Many women > walked up, flashed a goon, and got a checkmark on their card. (Some of the > goons flashed were female.) Much laughs were had. Was it inappropriate? > Yeah. The goons were talked to about it, and there were no goon bribe > cards this year. No coercion was found or known. There was nothing you > got other than the challenge coin. > > One person, who shall remain nameless, decided not only that that was > inappropriate (correct), but that it was sexual harassment (debatable (not > condoning, just saying it's debatable)). She printed up green, yellow, and > red cards, and handed them out as Harassment cards. > > I had a long discussion over twitter with her, and told her that although > her reasons for doing so were fine, and I supported her in those reasons, > her methods were non-optimal. > > She wanted to meet and discuss it, so we did. Long story short (too late > for that, I'm afraid, but I'm trying here!), we agreed that non-consensual > touching, inappropriate remarks to a non-consensual audience, and so forth, > is harassment. However, friends will walk up to each other, slap each > other on the ass, and say, "Hey bitch, how you doing?" Is that harassment? > No, of course not. It's consensual, with a good friend you have. So > far, so good. > > According to her, in a rape culture like we have in the USA, and in a > female devaluing culture, like we have in the hacker community, any > inappropriate behavior that devalues or objectifies women is akin to rape, > and is definitely harassment. And that behavior can be "called" by any > person around, including the recipient of the remark or behavior. And > since the goons were the source of the problem, they cannot be trusted. > > I disagreed with her vehemently. I explained that the goons were talked > to about the bribe cards. I asked whether there were any goons who gave > her an issue with any harassment issues or any issues at all. She said > that one of them told her that if she didn't like the smack talk, and the > hazing, she should just leave. I told her that there is a chain of > command, and she could and should have taken it up that chain. She said > that they were not to be trusted. The implication is that they are all > men, and therefore problems in their own right. In actuality, a very > receptive and friendly lady, Nikita, is one of the heads of the goons. In > other words, she hadn't bothered to check, but instead, had decided to > judge, in absentia, our own police force. > > I also disagreed with her claim that the Hacker Community devalues women. > She told me that she was asked last year (her first year) whether she was > a girlfriend, without anyone asking whether she was technically competent > (a hacker). I explained that most hackers compete in Social Engineering > contests. They are literally trained to read people. (By the way, she is > an activist journalist, and a barista by trade. She happens to be dating > someone who volunteers at the con, which is why she's here.) So she got > read. She told me that the number of women shows that we devalue women. > Fortunately, my lovely fiance was next to me, and my fiance is a technical > genius in her own right (If you see me smiling right now, you're right. > She's awesome.) My fiance told her that there were more and more women in > the community, and nobody questions them, once they pass the same hazing, > the same gauntlet, the same things that the men did. > > We then transitioned to her methods. I asked her if she knew how the > cards were being used? There were several women and men who had gotten > cards, and would walk around, telling their friends to say, grab their ass, > then handing them a card. It turned into a joke, essentially. Meanwhile, > several people who found out about the cards before the conference, almost > didn't come, in fear of being in our safe place, where we take care of each > other, getting drunk (we drink a bit out here), and getting carded for > something silly, even a joke, and that joke becoming a news story. > (Reporters are rampant here, as the next month's tech news comes out of > these conferences) > > We finished our discussion. I know I did not convince her totally of my > belief that while sexual harassment is bad, we have a group of overseers > who make sure jokes and inappropriate discussions do not go over the line. > Hazing happens. It's a rite of passage. I walk up to my friends, and > give them hugs. Are these hugs, or slaps on the ass, bad? No, unless > someone outside calls me on it. Then it becomes awkward. Then you lose > that comfort, that safe place, that community. > > I'm terribly sorry for the long monologue. I'm exhausted, and it's still > frustrating, 2 days later. > > Joshua > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Alex Hillman < > dangerouslyawes...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On the upside, I think you're concerned about the right things and for the > right reasons. > > The fact is that these kind of interactions are far more destructive when > they're taken out of context: as you said, what would another new member > who isn't "in on the joke" think? Or a significant other? > > I think the best course of action is not attacking this specific instance > or singling out the guy but instead looking at the overall issue, reminding > members that what they say and do is a reflection of the entire community. > Increase people's responsibility to each other & > increasing the sense of awareness is likely to address this non-malicious > issue before it opens the door for a truly malicious one. > > Maybe a town hall meeting or discussion with ALL members? I'd try to do > this in person since its potentially sensitive, and people tend to respond > differently (more authentically) in person than they would over text/chat. > > -- > /ah > indyhall.org > coworking in philadelphia > > On Tuesday, July 31, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Harold Maduro wrote: > > Thanks Alex for your input, it helps a lot. > > It´s an actual occurrence. The thing is, since we are a group of young > people working together with no boss or supervision; there are moments when > someone is more relaxed and start to makes jokes or funny comments and > overall is good fun. But things can get out of hand pretty quick, when the > jokes get some sexual connotation... and without anyone calling the person > out, or drawing a line when is too much, or over the line, a situation > might happen. > > Yesterday someone made a comment via chat to a female member. It wasnt an > advance, and it was supposed to be a joke, between two people that have > gained some trust (as coworkers), but it was very out of hand, rude and > vulgar. > > My concern is: what would happen if we live this situation with another > member? What would be her boyfriend or husband reaction? Right now: how > the rest of the female coworkers feel about the space and being here? Do > they fear this guy will tell them a rude comment? Will they prefer not to > come because of this? > > > > H > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Coworking" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/coworking/-/DUa1TFmC8EgJ. > To post to this group, send email to coworking@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Coworking" group. > To post to this group, send email to coworking@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Coworking" group. > To post to this group, send email to coworking@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Coworking" group. > To post to this group, send email to coworking@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > coworking+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/coworking?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Coworking" group. 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