Dear Martin I do not want to bore the SIG members any more, but your argument serves my cause, and not yours.
Let me remind that the discussion is about an example of (E78 Curated Holding which is a subclass of)) E24 Physical Man-Made Thing, i.e. the hard disks or whatever is carrying at MDZ the E73 Information Object. Undoubtedly E78 inherits the physicality of the superclass E24. The new E78 example says: 'The "Digital Collections" of the "Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ)" accessible via https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ at least in January 2018.' On the same MDZ web page, under the heading “Digital Collections”, MDZ offers services to Search Collections, Explore the Collections or thematic groupings. Do they mean they have developed a way to enable me to walk the hard disks bit by bit (i.e. explore the E24/E78) as the example would imply, or rather the information of which they are carriers (i.e. E73)? It is probably the second. MDZ and its users is very little interested in hard disks (E78) and more in the content they carry (E73). Then, their use of “Digital Collection” refers to a grouping of E73 instances rather than to hardware. Apparently, Martin does the opposite. But, I surrender, I do not want to become a hater in the SIG community nor see my messages automatically redirected to the SPAM folder. Unfortunately I can’t attend the Cologne meeting, where we could have continued this passionate discussion, possibly adding other very interesting themes like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”. By the way, what is an angel? An E38 actor, an E90 Symbolic Object, an AAAAARRGH Best wishes Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNE - PARTHENOS Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 11 gen 2018, alle ore 14:18, Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> ha > scritto: > > Dear All, > > I am fascinated by your enthousiasm and good comments, BUT if anyone of you > had opened the link, > > https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/index.html?&l=en > > you would have seen, that they use the term "Digital Collections", and not me! > > So, I improve: > > * The "Digital Collections" of the "Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ)" > accessible via https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ at least in January 2018. > > and I insist NOT to use any other term in that example than the real life > one... > > Best, > > martin > > On 1/11/2018 1:35 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: >> The number two is what all sets with two elements have in common or >> according to Gottlob Frege the number two is to count to two etc etc. >> >> Most dictionaries I have checked focus on the difference between digital as >> discrete signals and analog as continuous signals. I think this will change >> since digital already has a tendency to denote something connected to >> computer/non-analog electronic gadgets/devices. >> >> After creating and developing what has been called digital collections the >> last 25 years and working together with the scholars curating such beasts, >> my observation is that a digital collection is very similar to the >> traditional "physical" collections. There are of course some differences. >> You cannot really store a stuffed mammoth in a computer system without >> destroying the computer system. You may store a digital image depicting it. >> A digital collection is a collection of data (maybe information but let us >> drop that debate here) which mostly could have been stored on paper, >> magnetic tape etc, but in the case of a digital collection it will be stored >> in a computer system. One usually don’t care about the representation level >> (bit direction, sound waves in mercury (Turing) etc.). >> >> A (digital) collection maybe copied and published as a finished unit. My >> copy will not be the collection. It will be a copy (of the content) of the >> collection at a given point in time. It is definitely a physical thing. >> >> To make the discussion more complex: The curatorial aspect is also important >> when using the word collection. A collection can be an actor + a physical >> (data) set + the activity of curating the (data) set. >> >> In the fourth example on could put the word Digital in parenthesis or delete >> it: >> The (Digital) Collections of the Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ) >> accessible via >> https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ >> at least in January 2018 >> >> Best >> Christian-Emil >> >> From: Crm-sig >> <crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr> on behalf of Franco Niccolucci >> <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com> >> >> Sent: 11 January 2018 11:03 >> To: Achille Felicetti >> Cc: >> crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE 295 homework >> >> Thanks Achille. >> >> That sentence about 0s and 1s is there probably because people, and >> especially humanists like dictionary editors, don’t understand the nature of >> numbers. >> >> The number “two” is the number two, not two cows, two oranges or two humans. >> Its definition does not need any physical representation and even abstracts >> from any conceptual way of representing it, i.e. with a binary system (0s >> and 1s) or sexagesimal one. Actually in most cases, and in most people’s >> minds, two is 1 and 2, not 0 and 1, which comes in because the computer >> representation uses a flip-flop circuit. >> >> This is very clear from Martin’s distinction quoted in some previous email >> between Maxwells’ equations and the way they are formally represented, and >> then printed in a book. So there are three levels: the concept, the >> conceptual representation, and its physical footprint. Of these, two are >> described by the CRM, the intermediate one being probably considered as >> irrelevant. >> >> Franco >> >> >> Prof. Franco Niccolucci >> Director, VAST-LAB >> PIN - U. of Florence >> Scientific Coordinator >> ARIADNE - PARTHENOS >> >> Piazza Ciardi 25 >> 59100 Prato, Italy >> >> >> >>> Il giorno 11 gen 2018, alle ore 10:06, Achille Felicetti >>> <achille.felice...@pin.unifi.it> >>> ha scritto: >>> >>> Dear Franco, >>> >>> >>>> Il giorno 10 gen 2018, alle ore 21:52, Franco Niccolucci >>>> <franco.niccolu...@gmail.com> >>>> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Quoting Martin below >>>> >>>> [By Digital Collections] ... we do not mean the servers as a whole, but >>>> only the material signal encoding on the media. >>>> >>>> This statement is an oxymoron. Whatever material thing cannot be digital, >>>> not even “signals”: according to my Oxford Dictionary, digital means >>>> "expressed as a series of the digits 0 and 1". In a collection, whatever >>>> it is, you just get more 0’s and 1’s but no material thing. >>>> >>> For completeness it should also be noted that the Oxford Dictionary goes on >>> to explain that the 0 and 1 digits are: “typically represented by values of >>> a physical quantity such as voltage or magnetic polarization”, which seems, >>> in some way, to refer to some kind of “physicality” still present “in the >>> background” :-) >>> >>> A. >>> >>> >>>> Thanasis is right as regards deprecating the use of the expression >>>> “Digital Collections”. This term does not mean a material thing also for >>>> the authors of the Oxford Dictionary, besides the many readers he mentions >>>> that include myself. >>>> >>>> I may agree that the “encoding on the media” consists in (perhaps >>>> temporary and reversible) alterations of the media itself, possibly with >>>> only two different states eg black/white, positive/negative, etc, to >>>> encode the content according to a predefined code; and recorded there >>>> magnetically, optically or carved (the Code of Hammurabi kept at the >>>> Louvre, unfortunately not with a binary code); in any case altering (some >>>> property of) the media itself. It could also be Martin Doerr’s voice, >>>> analogically recorded on vinyl on 10/01/2018 from 21:48 to 22:30 while >>>> reading the Code of Hammurabi in Akkadian (with a nice voice but with a >>>> terrible German accent, unfortunately) . >>>> >>>> So, thumbs down for "digital collections”. >>>> >>>> Franco >>>> >>>> >>>> Prof. Franco Niccolucci >>>> Director, VAST-LAB >>>> PIN - U. of Florence >>>> Scientific Coordinator >>>> ARIADNE - PARTHENOS >>>> >>>> Piazza Ciardi 25 >>>> 59100 Prato, Italy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Il giorno 10 gen 2018, alle ore 21:02, Martin Doerr <mar...@ics.forth.gr> >>>>> ha scritto: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Thanasi, >>>>> >>>>> On 1/10/2018 1:30 PM, Athanasios Velios wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Shouldn't this: >>>>>> >>>>>> § The Digital Collections of the Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ) >>>>>> accessible via >>>>>> https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ >>>>>> at least in January 2018. >>>>>> >>>>>> be instead: >>>>>> >>>>>> § The group of servers (hardware) holding the Digital Collections of >>>>>> the Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ) accessible via >>>>>> https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ >>>>>> at least in January 2018. >>>>>> >>>>>> The term "Digital Collections" will not necessarily mean a physical >>>>>> thing for many readers. >>>>>> >>>>> Actually we do not mean the servers as a whole, but only the material >>>>> signal encoding on the media. This interpretation gives correct answers >>>>> that the collection can be destroyed, and is a "holding" in the hands of >>>>> the maintainers, i.e., physically kept, and that it can change like a >>>>> physical thing loosing its previous form. >>>>> The immaterial item would not change, reside on multiple carriers. An >>>>> update would create a new derivative, i.e., another thing, not affecting >>>>> other copies around. >>>>> The material interpretation is problematic if the content is moved around >>>>> servers. >>>>> >>>>> Another interpretation is that of a "volatile dataset" we at FORTH used >>>>> in the PARTHENOS project, which uses the logical condition that there is >>>>> only one representative version of the data object at any point in time, >>>>> regardless carrier. It updates like a material object. This may in >>>>> general create a problem, if the authority identifying the correct >>>>> representative version not clear. I tried to be neutral to this dilemma >>>>> by using the URL, which points to the physical "location", under which >>>>> the representative version will appear, and makes the storage system an >>>>> internal issue of the maintainer. >>>>> >>>>> Consider a "move" of the database to another storage system and a >>>>> simultaneous update. Then, formally, neither the carrier nor the content >>>>> is the same, but it is still the same "digital library". >>>>> >>>>> Note, that if I make a copy of a digital library, I get an immaterial >>>>> object, which will not be representative after the first change to the >>>>> original, without me doing anything. Hence, the digital library does not >>>>> behave like an Information Object in the sense of the CRM. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>>> All the best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanasis >>>>>> >>>>>> On 04/01/18 17:39, Martin Doerr wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here my proposals: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "ISSUE 295 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Following Martin’s proposal to remove class E84 since it does not >>>>>>> satisfy the requirements proposed on issue 340, the sig proposed the >>>>>>> examples of material carrier of a digital object to be moved to E24 of >>>>>>> an E25 digital feature and possibly to E78 οr put example for E78 of >>>>>>> Server holding Digital Asset Management. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finally, the sig asked Martin to make an example. The issue will be >>>>>>> complete with examples. It is decided to be created a new issue for >>>>>>> covering the discussion aboutE84 staying or going" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *I propose: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Delete:* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E84 Information Carrier >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subclass of:E22 <#_E22_Man-Made_Object> Man-Made Object >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scope note:This class comprises all instances of E22 Man-Made Object >>>>>>> that are explicitly designed to act as persistent physical carriers for >>>>>>> instances of E73 Information Object. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An E84 Information Carrier may or may not contain information, e.g., a >>>>>>> diskette. Note that any E18 Physical Thing may carry information, such >>>>>>> as an E34 Inscription. However, unless it was specifically designed for >>>>>>> this purpose, it is not an Information Carrier. Therefore the property >>>>>>> /P128 carries (is carried by)/ applies to E18 Physical Thing in general. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examples: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Rosetta Stone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §my paperback copy of Crime & Punishment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the computer disk at ICS-FORTH that stores the canonical Definition of >>>>>>> the CIDOC CRM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In First Order Logic: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E84(x) ⊃E22(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *New examples in:* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *E78 Curated Holding*** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subclass of: E24 <#_E24_Physical_Man-Made_Thing> Physical Man-Made Thing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scope note:This class comprises aggregations of instances of E18 >>>>>>> Physical Thing that are assembled and maintained (“curated” and >>>>>>> “preserved,” in museological terminology) by one or more instances of >>>>>>> E39 Actor over time for a specific purpose and audience, and according >>>>>>> to a particular collection development plan.Typical instances of >>>>>>> curated holdings are museum collections, archives, library holdings and >>>>>>> digital libraries. A digital library is regarded as an instance of E18 >>>>>>> Physical Thing because it requires keeping physical carriers of the >>>>>>> electronic content. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Items may be added or removed from an E78 Curated Holding in pursuit of >>>>>>> this plan. This class should not be confused with the E39 Actor >>>>>>> maintaining the E78 Curated Holding often referred to with the name of >>>>>>> the E78 Curated Holding (e.g. “The Wallace Collection decided…”). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Collective objects in the general sense, like a tomb full of gifts, a >>>>>>> folder with stamps or a set of chessmen, should be documented as >>>>>>> instances of E19 Physical Object, and not as instances of E78 Curated >>>>>>> Holding. This is because they form wholes either because they are >>>>>>> physically bound together or because they are kept together for their >>>>>>> functionality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examples: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the John Clayton Herbarium >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Wallace Collection >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §Mikael Heggelund Foslie’s coralline red algae Herbarium at Museum of >>>>>>> Natural History and Archaeology, Trondheim, Norway >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §The Digital Collections of the Munich DigitiZation Center (MDZ) >>>>>>> accessible via >>>>>>> https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/ >>>>>>> at least in January 2018. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In First Order Logic: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E78(x) ⊃E24(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *E24 Physical Man-Made **Thing*** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subclass of:E18 <#_E18_Physical_Thing> Physical Thing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E71 <#_E71_Man-Made_Thing>Man-Made Thing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Superclass of: E22 <#_E22_Man-Made_Object>Man-Made Object >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E25 <#_E25_Man-Made_Feature>Man-Made Feature >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E78 <#_E78_Collection>Collection >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scope Note:This class comprises all persistent physical items that are >>>>>>> purposely created by human activity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This class comprises man-made objects, such as a swords, and man-made >>>>>>> features, such as rock art. No assumptions are made as to the extent of >>>>>>> modification required to justify regarding an object as man-made. For >>>>>>> example, a “cup and ring” carving on bedrock is regarded as instance of >>>>>>> E24 Physical Man-Made Thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examples: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Forth Railway Bridge (E22) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Channel Tunnel (E25) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Historical Collection of the Museum Benaki in Athens (E78) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Rosetta Stone (E22) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §my paperback copy of Crime & Punishment (E22) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the computer disk at ICS-FORTH that stores the canonical Definition of >>>>>>> the CIDOC CRM (E22) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §my empty DVD disk (E22) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In First Order Logic: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E24(x) ⊃E18(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E24(x) ⊃E71(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Properties: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P62 <#_P62_depicts_%28is_depicted%20by%29> depicts (is depicted by): E1 >>>>>>> <#_E1_CRM_Entity> CRM Entity >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (P62.1 mode of depiction: E55 <#_E55_Type> Type) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> P65 <#_P65_shows_visual_item%20%28is%20shown%20by%29> shows visual item >>>>>>> (is shown by): E36 <#_E36_Visual_Item> Visual Item >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Scope Note extension:** >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *E25 Man-Made Feature*** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subclass of:E24 <#_E24_Physical_Man-Made_Thing> Physical Man-Made Thing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E26 <#_E26_Physical_Feature>Physical Feature >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Scope Note:This class comprises physical features that are purposely >>>>>>> created by human activity, such as scratches, artificial caves, >>>>>>> artificial water channels, etc. In particular it includes the >>>>>>> information encoding features on mechanical or digital carriers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No assumptions are made as to the extent of modification required to >>>>>>> justify regarding a feature as man-made. For example, rock art or even >>>>>>> “cup and ring” carvings on bedrock a regarded as types of E25 Man-Made >>>>>>> Feature. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Examples: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §the Manchester Ship Canal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §Michael Jackson’s nose following plastic surgery >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §The laser-readable “pits” engraved June 2014 in my CD-R, copying songs >>>>>>> of Edith Piaf’s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> §The carved letters on the Rosetta Stone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In First Order Logic: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E25(x) ⊃E26(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E25(x) ⊃E24(x) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>>>>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>>>>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>>>>>> Institute of Computer Science | >>>>>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>>>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> Web-site: >>>>>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>>>>>> | >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | >>>>> Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | >>>>> | Email: >>>>> mar...@ics.forth.gr >>>>> | >>>>> | >>>>> Center for Cultural Informatics | >>>>> Information Systems Laboratory | >>>>> Institute of Computer Science | >>>>> Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | >>>>> | >>>>> N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | >>>>> GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | >>>>> | >>>>> Web-site: >>>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl >>>>> | >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Crm-sig mailing list >>>> >>>> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >>>> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Crm-sig mailing list >> >> Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. Martin Doerr | Vox:+30(2810)391625 | > Research Director | Fax:+30(2810)391638 | > | Email: > mar...@ics.forth.gr > | > | > Center for Cultural Informatics | > Information Systems Laboratory | > Institute of Computer Science | > Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) | > | > N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, | > GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece | > | > Web-site: > http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl > | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
