> > According to all four Gospels <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel>, > immediately after the Last Supper, Jesus took a walk to pray in the Garden > of Gethsemane <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gethsemane>, accompanied by St. > Peter <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter>, St. > John<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_the_Apostle>and St. > James the Greater <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_the_Greater>, > whom He asked to stay awake and pray. He moved "a stone's throw away" from > them, where he felt overwhelming sadness and anguish, and said "My > Father<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father>, > if it is possible, let this cup pass me by. Nevertheless, let it be as you, > not I, would have it." Then, a little while later, He said, "If this cup > cannot pass by, but I must drink it, your will be done!" (Gospel of > Matthew <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew> 26:42). He said > this prayer three times, checking on the three apostles, between each prayer > and finding them asleep. He comments: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh > is weak". An angel came from heaven to strengthen him. > > During his agony, as he prayed, (according to Luke 22:44) "his sweat was as > it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground". > This scriptural depiction of the agony in the Garden is taken from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agony_in_the_Garden). First, it seems that Jesus wants to get out of the crucifixion. And He seems to bring a petition before the Lord to let him out of the crucifixion. His "flesh," that is, his human nature, wanted one thing, while it appears that God wanted another (But he's unsure about what God wants throughout the prayer). Second, it appears that Jesus ends His praying in a state of certainty that "*if* this cup cannot pass by" and *if *"I must drink it," then "Your (God's) will be done!". The "*iffyness*" in what Jesus said here might reflect His human condition in that a human cannot predict the future; and it may reflect His continuing resistance to the thought of being crucified. At any rate, it doesn't seem that Jesus is certain that God's will is that He go to the cross at any point in the prayer. So I soften my position from the position I spoke of in the last post. However, this doesn't affect my idea that certainty is the marker of having the truth and certainty is given by the Holy Spirit. For Jesus didn't claim to have the truth in His uncertainty on the issue (hence, the "iffyness").
I know that Jesus's divinity complicates things here (since in principle He can predict the future), but humanly speaking, I don't think Jesus claims in this passage that He hears from God a definitive answer on whether He's going to the Cross. Instead, Jesus forms the intention to go to the cross if God wants Him to go to the cross. And so the fact that He's uncertain about whether He's going to the cross is not a threat to the idea I developed a couple posts ago in response to Dave's post. For again, Jesus doesn't claim to have the truth from God while being in a state of uncertainty. Bobby On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Robert Johnson < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Good consideration. Do you think that Jesus was uncertain what the will > of God was, or was He uncertain of what He wanted to do in relation to God's > will? If it's the former, then this is a problem for my idea, unless Jesus > resolved the uncertainty. If it's the latter, then it's no problem. From my > understanding of the passage, Jesus ends up knowing what God's will is: > namely, for Him (Jesus) to go to the cross. The uncertainty arises in the > prayer because at some level (possibly at a human, biological, survival > based level; maybe just at the level of wanting to resist extreme pain) > Jesus resists going to the cross. But then he says, "not My will but Your > will (be done)," implying that He will go through with the Father's > will even in the face of his natural resistance. This also implies that > Jesus is certain that it is God's will that He goes to the cross. Since > Jesus is certain that God's will is for Him to go to the cross, his thought, > "God wants me to go to the cross" is marked with certainty. Maybe at some > point in the prayer Jesus is uncertain what He is supposed to do, but by the > end it seems that He is certain. That certainty, that arrival at > unquestionable truth, is the Holy Spirit speaking. However, I'm not > sure how we are to understand Jesus's composition: Does He have the Holy > Spirit within Him at this time? Is the Helper sent to us after He leaves > within Him? Does my idea even apply to Jesus? These are some questions I'd > want to iron out before I judge decisively on your question. > > Bobby > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Mike Butler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Bob, I don't have time right now to respond to everything; however, I >> would ask: How does the second "marker" match up against Jesus praying in >> the Garden prior to his death. There seems to be some uncertainty within the >> prayer, even if he trusts that the will of God will be done. >> On Sep 2, 2008, at 12:11 AM, Robert Johnson wrote: >> >> I am interested in what you say here: >> >> >>> I have considered that God may merely plant thoughts or concepts >>> into the mind of a person if he wishes them to speak it aloud and, if >>> they are aware the "message" was given by God, they may speak it >>> through a mental filter of their impression of God. >> >> >> Could you please develop the thought a bit more? I'm toying around with >> the idea that all false beliefs come from Satan and all true beliefs come >> from God -- and that rationality and certainty are the key weapons or >> tests to knowing God's voice and sifting it from the voice of Satan. A >> couple questions: If the Holy Spirit was given to us to teach us and to >> guide us into all truth, then is there any true thought that enters our mind >> that isn't validated by the Holy Spirit? If so, each true thought is the >> product of the voice of God. >> >> Now, just how does one know that something is true? This is a difficult >> question, but I think that true beliefs have two markers that we can >> experience: first, they are rational -- that is, we can provide a >> compelling case on their behalf; and second, we are certain of them -- >> there's not a hint of doubt that they are true (as Locke put it, they have a >> 'luminous glow'). >> >> So accordingly, each true belief that one sees as true is validated by the >> Holy Spirit, who "will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). Once one >> ratchets down the truth with certainty and rationality, knowing that all >> truth is brought to us by the Holy Spirit, one can legitimately say that >> "God has spoken to me". >> >> Bobby >> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 3:24 PM, D C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Yes, Darrin, that's exactly what I'm saying. >>> >>> On Aug 31, 10:35 pm, Darrin M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> > Are you saying that basically you have a problem with, say, Joe Blow >>> > from Podunk, Oklahoma having a vision of God and telling the world >>> > what happened by saying, "Thine Lord sayeth to me to come hither >>> > and.....etc"? If that's your point then yes, I agree totally that >>> > they are probably putting on a show. If anything, you'd think it >>> > would come to you in Aramic or Greek. But since I feel God >>> > communicates to us in ways that we can understand, I'd bet God would >>> > use something other than Medieval dialect. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/crosspointe-discuss?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
