Dave, Thank you for elaborating. And now I think you'd agree with me that what's not clearly true and eminently reasonable is not from God, even if you don't agree that 100% of falsehood come from Satan. Maby 50% comes from Satan, if any. And maybe 50% comes from our cognitive errors or the cognitive errors of those who taught us.
Also, it think it is always a possibility that what we say is false, even if we are certain of it and even if it is reasonable. However, setting this fact aside, it still makes sense that the Holy Spirit proposes truths for us to believe while Satan proposes falsehoods. Yes, our free will is involved and perhaps we make mistakes. But given that Jesus calls Satan the Father of Lies, it makes sense that mental distortions and misrepresentations of reality in our minds are the work of Satan. Maybe we should add that they can also be the product of our own error or errors in the community -- but again, this is traced back to the work of satan, although we were in joint agency with Him. So point taken, we should divide the blame between Satan and us. But given that we have to battle our own sin and the will of Satan, doesn't it seem that certainty and rationality are the least we should expect from our messages from God? As Descartes put it, shouldn't we expect God's message to be a "clear and distinct idea?" Bobby On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 1:41 PM, D C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Bobby, > I'll start by saying that, for myself, I have never audibly heard > God. However, I know that I have something akin to an inner voice > that leads me in directions I don't always agree with (i.e. it does > not validate thoughts or actions that I would prefer). I often judge > things to be in line with God's will when that inner voice isn't > riding my @$$ like Zorro and whipping me with a riding crop braided > with guilt. You know my thoughts on (moderate) alcohol intake. Never > once have I felt my conscience tugging at me about that one. Things > that I would like to justify in my own mind when it comes to certain > types of interaction with the opposite sex on the other hand - don't > seem to fly with that same inner guide. I don't know if that process > works for other people. Hell, I don't truly know if it even works > that well for me. > Anyway, to the quote that had you interested... I've heard specific > people "speak" "from God" in the KJV dialect and I would like to think > that these CERTAIN people are not full of the [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my > personal > relationship with them, I would even go so far as to say that if they > were making it up, they really didn't think they were. Most of the > time I find them to be fully devoted to Christ - more interested in > honoring God than getting noticed for doing so, but also easily > susceptible to suggestion and not really counted among the great > thinkers of our time. I think we have all agreed that God speaking > audibly, while not impossible, is probably a rarity. So when and if > God were to speak, it would be up to the person receiving the > "message" to interpret it and relay it, which one would think would > come out in that person's own words along with their normal methods of > speech, verbal mannerisms, etc. However, if said "vessel" were > actually aware that this message was from God and felt that they > should relay it as God would AND their impression of God is the KJV > speak, I find it reasonable that a true word from God might be voiced > in said manner. I'll emphasize that, even if this were the case, I > believe it really only represents a small percentage of the "Words > from God" that get the "Thus sayeth the Lord," treatment. The rest > are making it up, presumably for the purpose of (poorly thought out) > self-aggrandizement. > If one were so inclined to launch a true study, I imagine that we > would see a sharp decline in "Thus sayeth" messages comparing "words > from God" voiced by say, the last four generations of Christians as > fewer and fewer people are subjected as regularly to the KJV speak at > church and at home. The mentality is still there, but the impression > of God speaking in "thees and thous" has diminished. I know my views > on this sort of thing come off as rather harsh. It's probably fair to > say that they are, but I blame this type of thing for turning me off > to church in general for many years - years when I really needed the > guidance a good church community can provide. More importantly, I > think many people are still turned off by churches for this very > reason - people that are right on the edge of wanting to be involved, > but knowing a load of BS when they hear it. I tried a lot of churches > before I came to Crosspointe. I was sold on Crosspointe after just > one visit. Pastor Joe seemed so real and honest and genuine. > Surprisingly enough, (and this may not come out right) I think most > leaders really inspired by God are relatively unimpressive - because > the act isn't needed. > To the "All truth comes from God, all un-truth comes from Satan," > with no major research whatsoever, I thoroughly, 100%, do not believe > it. Maybe you've heard me say it before, but every time this comes up > I remember an old comic that I saw when I was a kid (ironically, at > church I think). The devil sat on a sidewalk out in front of a church > crying. A little boy comes up to him and asks what's wrong and the > devil replies, "They blame EVERYTHING on me in there!" The main > reason I don't buy the concept comes down to free will, essentially. > God can't (won't) make you tell the truth anymore than the devil can > make you lie. At least, that's my thesis statement. I think that > lifestyle and habits can make one more attune to one side or the > other, but ultimately, I think a person can choose to lie with no > Satanic influence whatsoever. Also, have you considered the more > mundane elements of conversation? If you will grant that "It's a nice > day outside." while based in opinion, is a true statement in this > example - was it a divine-inspired statement? How about something > more factual like "I have to work on Thursday."? > Let's go with the research field which is littered with false > beliefs, many of which are only discovered false after decades or > centuries of being accepted as fact (ie, "Lewis Black is funny"). Are > man's failings to fully comprehend God's creation on the first attempt > to be blamed on the devil? > Is the devil negatively influencing my ability to correctly analyze > my girlfriend's feelings or is it simply that she doesn't know what > she truly wants from one moment to the next? > Moreover, hasn't God often obscured factual ends from man or even > specific men? -Abraham, your son is going to die today by your own > hand- (without furthering this argument in the vein of the rabbinic > midrash or Hasidic masters). Which is not to say that God lied, but > rather that he deliberately did not reveal facts and even lead man to > believe something potentially contrary to the end result. I'm sure > there are better examples. > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Crosspointe Discuss" group. 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