-Caveat Lector- hey bb. i respect your patriotism and all but... well, no that isn't true. i think nationalism is dangerous and the old fashioned way of thinking about "what is mine, what is theirs?" i could easily have been writing about china, UK or USA or any country. they all suck. i do not hate you personally- i hate your government and your governments actions, is it so difficult to see the difference? and if i swear and make fun of stuff such as the yellow ribbons then tough titty- don't be so damned pompous and precious- as i said in a previous posting- no-one, not even americans could stretch reality enough to present this incident as being akin to, say, the iranian hostage situation in 1980. no-one thought for a minute that the present day servicemen would not be coming home. the rest of the world had a laugh at the latest example of american imperialist arrogance etc etc... your prose style in this mail is such that i can almost here your voice rising and ending in a long shriek toward the end. i wuld begin responding to much of what you say below but it seems wasted when i read comments such as "on Sunday morning yet" ... which is mindboggling really. those nasty nips really were the most evil ungodly bunch to commit such an atrocity on the sabbath, uh? in fact it was them attacking on the lord's day that made it an atrocity i presume? ----- Original Message ----- From: BB To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Dead Chinese fighter pilot footage "c." wrote: -Caveat Lector- i thought there was more humour in you than there apparently is bb and it seems i didn't make the satire or sarcasm bold enough for you to see, my mistake. Sorry, I missed it. But it's a little difficult to see humour when you attack me, my country, my government, my military personnel, and curse us and our endeavors. However, maybe there IS more humour in me than you think -- didn't you read my suggestion that you relax and enjoy a hamburger? Hmmmnnnnn?? Additional comments interspersed below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "BB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:39 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Dead Chinese fighter pilot footage > -Caveat Lector- > > No, I will agree to no such absurd, preposterous thing. > It is not negligent to land one's aircraft to save 24 lives, > it is only common sense, and international law provides for > such emergencies. I keep making this point, you keep not > reading. international law is all well and fine- but my point remains- they shuld have sealanded the craft and bailed to stop it gettig into chinese hands and to avoid the resulting diplomatic coup that china has since enjoyed. Well, I guess that's second guessing the pilot, he had a decision to make. Ditching at sea is always dicey, usually fatal. A large plane rarely comes to rest, but flips tail over nose, or catches one wing with resulting cartwheels and breakup -- usually fatalities. I cannot detect ANY diplomatic coup that China has enjoyed- They are in jeopardy of losing much, and now are doing a diplomatic dance about returning our captured (under the force of arms), stolen, rifled, pilfered aircraft. > > You do not "effectively" give your military aircraft to an enemy > simply because you were forced to land there in order to save your > life, they should have bailed. >especially since the aircraft was rendered inoperable how do you make that out? I make that out because one prop was chewed, the engine shut down, they lost 5-8000 feet of altitude with the pilot using all his strength to hold the aircraft straight because of most of the remaining torque being applied to the right wing, AND finally, because of your own words, describing the herosim of the instigator of the incident, noted below with **, which says "he is a national hero because he **brough down an aircraft that was spying on his mother country" AND "for knocking out an american aircraft" Therefore, I conclude the plane was rendered inoperable because you admit that it was "brought down" and "knocked out." by the > reckless joy ridings of a hot-shot jet jockey showing off. no- not showing off- if you read the article it explained that it is a common practice to buzz spyplanes, It really does not matter whether or not it is common practice, his foolish and irresponsible behavior resulted in his death, and any reasonable person would conclude that his low speed, all but falling out of the sky proximity to the large aircraft, his combination of Italian, Hawaiian and Chinese hand gestures to the US crew, and the holding up of the sign with his email address on it for the crew to read, all while "flying" one-handed was in fact showing off. during the cold war it was done on both sides. neither side actually fire on each other, so stay within int. law. what would america do if chinese spyplanes were off san fransisco? If it were 200 MILES off San Francisco, I imagine nothing. i read a washington times piece that was wetting it's knickers because of an increase in activitiy by china off the chinese coast LOL so i doubt that military manouvers would be tolerated by america. Out sea 200 miles, we wouldn't care. You forget, Castro's Communist Paradise is a mere 90 miles south of Florida. in fact- how would america react if one of china's allies were to station 100,000 men just on your doorstep? cuba say? you would fuck them up in hours. NO NEED TO REVERT TO PIGMOUTH. I quote from the bottom of each posting, "Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector." yet america have 100,000 in japan. You seem to have forgotten, there was a bit of a skirmish in that area back in 1941 through 1945, and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor even as the Japanese Ambassador was preparing for a meeting with our President FDR., killing 1555 American naval personnel, doing a great deal of damage - on Sunday morning yet. Having done so, they engaged us in a rather long, protracted war in the South Pacific, wherein they cost us many American lives, brutally torturing and murdering many of them in true Asian fashion whenever they could, as exemplified in the Bataan death march, and other Island skirmishes wherein they felt bullets were not sufficient, but beheading was more appropriate. Maybe I need to be more direct also - had it not been for the Americans that seem to annoy you so much, you would be speaking German now, (and maybe us too). Imagine living under a benevolent government such as the one capable of the 12 million plus murders of the holocaust. (Please don't launch into a tirade that it did not happen.) > International law provides that such a landing NOT BE PUNISHED, > due to the overriding consideration of the emergency. I made that > point before also, apparently to little avail. to no avail because it just doesn't wash... international law bows down before public opinion. china won the propaganda war of that incident. maybe not within america- but outside it for sure. That will be the day that International Law bows down before public opinion. It's a non-sequiter that you bring in a factor of propaganda war winning - it was never a point of consideration as far as this discussion goes. You say it doesn't wash -- perhaps you did not read my recounting the incident wherein a Russian aircraft landed in Alaska. > > I really couldn't care less how china could show us how to deal > with traitors it was irony, bb, america is second only to china in the league table of domestic, civilian executions so i don't really think america needs any lessons in executing- but those yellow ribbons really pissed me off. But it was YOU who brought up the subject of executions, so why castigate ME for it? What kind of cold hearted person are you, that 24 anxious, concerned, fearful families would post a yellow ribbon outside their home in the publicly expressed hope that their loved ones would return home, and their action would PISS YOU OFF? Do you not have anyone close to you, a family member, for whom you would not do the same? Pissed off? WHY?? Have you NEVER heard "Tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree"? -- those uncivilized, murderous brutes are viscious > animals when it comes to dealing with human beings. erm... can i just mention the policing of the seattle anti WTO demonstrations? very civilised indeed. Perhaps you did not witness the "demonstrators" trying to rip Seattle to shreds? Did your news not show you that part? You are going far afield -- this discussion began with consideration of the "accident" -- what has Seattle demonstrations, or the MANY slaps you have made about America and Americans, have to do with the fact that an irresponsible, belligerent Chinese pilot CAUSED, at best, an international incident. You seem delighted with all this -- would you LIKE to see a war between the USA and China? Would YOU come to our aid?? As far as > executing their crew, I doubt it a great deal -- they did not execute > their second pilot participating in the harassment, he didn't give a plane to the yanks, so why execute him? But it was YOU who boasted that the chinese could teach us a lesson in executions. YOU brought it up - where are you going with this? You want ME to defend YOUR point of view??? He failed to provide "safe support" to his brother who was killed, or a hundred other excuses the Chinese could have drummed up in the event that they wanted to play it that way. and they all but > named the deceased a national hero for his ridiculous antics which > cost his life, a Chinese aircraft, and an American aircraft, along with > a great deal of intelligence hardware and data, and compromised military > secrets. you are confused- Naa, I'm not confused -- maybe you've heard of the Chinese overwhelming necessity to "save face." Here's what young Wong Way accomplished for his country. 1. He lost his life. All that training down the tubes. 2. He lost his aircraft. All that money, so few aircraft. 3. He created an international incident. All that anger, warmongering, posturing, threatening. 4. He placed in jeopardy his country's immense income from selling us, and half the rest of the world, almost everything we can buy. 5. He placed in jeopardy his country's bid for the 2008 Olympics. No, no confusion here - he's a hero now that he's gone, but consider how much of a hero he'd have been had he survived-- remember the manacles hands on the opposite side of the jail bars --? You did not mention that example, or reprint that brutal episode I documented last time. he is a national hero because he **brough down an aircraft <--------- (1) that was spying on his mother country. his sacrifice was worthy. and they are hardly going to execute him (if he lived) **for knocking out an<------------ (2) american aircraft and allowing the chinese army to have a gander at it are they? why do you think that the chinese authorities would punish him for compromising american secrets? ;) > > I really do not know why you hate us American types so much, i don't- OH, but you do - your every comment against us drips with acrimony - I detect nothing friendly about any of your comments about America or Americans. i just think that having only the one superpower is unbalancing- it creates situations in the world where america thinks it can act with impunity. Dreadfully sorry, old man, for being the only super-power - perhaps we could create a few more, just for you, so the situation won't be "unbalancing." Better yet, what about "the sun never sets on the British Empire?" like i said- if the reverse situation happened then america would be horrified that china was being so evil as to spy on you so closely. deny that if you can. SO CLOSELY is a deliberate exaggeration - we danced with this one before - International treaty provides for 60 miles, the Chinese claim 200. Your every comment indicates you sympathize with the oh-so-traumatized Chinese, innocent lambs that they are. Would you feel reassured if we had no surveillance activities whatever - like the Russians and Chinese DON'T have? What are you getting at with all the sniping - what's your goal? Would you LIKE to see us overthrown? You're constantly telling us what bothers you, what pisses you off, now tell us what you're FOR - what's your GOAL, what would you LIKE to see happen? Have the Chinese made NO contributions to our former President? BOUGHT no influence? Attempted influence in NO elections? Control both ends of NO Panama Canals? Maintain NO ports in the BAHAMAS, with adjacent "world class airports"? Have NO 20 year leases of former Naval Bases in LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA? Have expressed NO intentions of obtaining control over the Suez Canal? SPY SO CLOSELY??? Give me a break - wake up, man -- They are HERE in my country, NOT 200 miles offshore in an airplane. > you must not forget that as allies, your country benefits from the > surveillance and data gathered as well as the rest of the free world. no- we get data that suits america- So Say You ---are you that privy to what your government is doing? do not dress it up as some sort of recipricol thing- I dressed up nothing - I merely said "your country benefits" - and no, it's not reciprocal, the UK gathers no such information to share. unless it suits america. the missile defence crapola is a great example... for it to work stations are needed in the UK- but it won't protect the UK- only america. fuck that for a laugh. No need to become a PIG MOUTH c., I'm sure you can remain civilized, if you try. We are just delighted and impressed with your vocabulary, but do I need to remind you of what Anne Robinson would say to you AGAIN?? Are you drinking? On drugs? You don't seem too confident in your own government if you think they are so easily duped. You seem sure we'd leave you unprotected - just like we did during world war II. We did our best to protect Israel during the Gulf War - what makes you think we'd abandon you? Why the anger? Why the chip the size of a sequoia on your shoulder? What in the world gives you that insight to make that statement, that you can be sure what will and will not happen. > > Let me give you one small insight into the mind and humanity of > the Chinese government you admire so much, seen on NBC news > about one month ago. A detailed account of Chinese brutality was delete here. > > NOW, you want to "induce siezures in" yourself, get a look at that > brutal treatment of a human being, being administered by the > bragging, bellicose "inheritors of 5000 years of history." rodney king? Nice diversion, but I don't see 18 chinese jailers going on trial for both criminal and civil charges, and I don't see the poor Chinese victim coming away with several million dollars for his troubles. how many equivielnat atrocities commited in the free world would you like me to scrape up? After the King episode, we were treated to a video of one of your bobbies beating a prostrate victim half to death, but, to remind you yet again, you digress, and veer far away from the discussion of WHO caused the incident. I wouldn't want you to scrape up any - I just wanted to demonstrate that the Chinese are gearing up for a war, deliberately provoking trouble, and contrary to their posturing as being a modern, civilized society, are in fact brutal and murderous. BOTTOM LINE, my friend, is that you are hereby defrocked as the resident Anti-American that you are, and it would behoove you to stand up like a man and admit it - regardless of your protestations to the contrary. Snipe, Snipe, oh but no, I don't hate you --- It's just that I do not approve of you, or of anything you do, and I'd kind of like to see you fail big-time- but No, I don't hate you. No, NOT MUCH. NOW, WHO ARE YOU REALLY ???? A shill? A Plant??? The latest in a long line of disruptors??? A stirrer? Just what do you hope to accomplish by being "pissed off?" Just what does c. stand for anyway? China? Chinese? Relax, enjoy a hamburger. <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html <A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ <A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl</A> ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org</A> DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html <A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ <A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl</A> ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om