-Caveat Lector-
Amelia wrote:
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Well, J2, I think you are the one with it ass-backwards. On the
> one hand you claim the Jews were this poor, oppressed minority with
> no military yet the Vatican with no military should have done what
> the armies of Europe could not do. I have conceded some
> collaboration but it is on the part of ALL parties and not peculiar
> to the Vatican. The Poles could not have fought off the Soviet
> army any more than the 'poor oppressed Jews' could have done so.
> You speak of the Poles lack of having the balls to fight back, but
> isn't that the real problem with the Jews? Why should the Poles
> have fought back but everyone else should have done that for the
> Jews? I think you are unrealistic in claiming that Jews were
> totally without blame in the collaboration game and that the
> Vatican could have prevented anything at all. I think the Vatican
> would have saved their own if they could have done so. Do you think
> the Pope should have immediately sided with the anti-Catholic
> British and Protestant Americans? Put him in a very bad position,
> I would say. The number of priest in Europe that went to the death
> camps is staggering. You only have concern for Jews and Jews only.
> You speak as though no other group's suffering counts. I find that
> very telling. And also that you think others lacking for not
> fighting back but they should have also fought back FOR the Jews
> who were selling them out to the Soviets?
>
> If we are going to take back property stolen in war, I want my
> great-grandparent's property burned and stolen by the U.S. govt
> returned. You are not their accomplice in keeping it from me, are
> you?
>
> So I guess I will just do as you do, ignore all facts and continue
> to hold my church in esteem (your phrase) for the good that it did
> do and does currently. It is easy to take things out of their
> historical context and make judgments. The Vatican could have
> destroyed any and all documentation that would cast them in a bad
> light. If they have not done so, I think that speaks well of those
> in charge. You are well aware of the insurance claims paid to on
> behalf of all the 'poor, oppressed Jews' in Europe and it is never
> enough for they continue to sue for even greater amounts. I think
> this is a money-grubbing scheme and Jews are salivating at the
> thought of getting their mitts on the Vatican, nothing more. And
> there is little you can say that will change my mind.
> ~Amelia~
OK.
J2
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nurev Ind." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 7:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [CTRL] For the Record Pope Pius XII
>
> -Caveat Lector-
>
> Amelia wrote:
> >
> > -Caveat Lector-
> >
> > I am fully aware that the revisionists have now decided that Pius
> > collaborated with the Nazis, etc. This is an article of what was
> > said at the time by those in a position to know that just came
> out
> > today. I personally think the new found guilt of the Vatican
>
> There's nothing new about it. The Vatican simply can't cover it up
> any longer because this is the information age, and non-Catholics
> don't care what the Vatican wants.
>
> > has
> > much to do with wanting even more reparations and the extortion
> of
> > huge sums of money.
>
> The Jews involved in this want their rightful property back which
> was
> stolen from them by the Nazis and hidden by their accomplices in
> the
> Vatican. Let's be clear about this. The Vatican is hiding the
> stolen
> property of the Nazi victims. Nice.
>
> > Maybe the Poles should do the same to the Jews
> > who collaborated with the Soviets resulting in even more deaths
> to
> > the Polish people.
>
> I know that you are desperate to keep your church in some kind of
> esteem,
> but you are going a little whacky here. The Jews did not control
> the Soviets.
> If the Poles didn't like Soviet control they should have had the
> balls to
> have a revolution. Like the colonists did with English domination.
>
> > I certainly hope they do so for 3 million
> > Polish Roman Catholics went to the death camps and this started
> > long before any Jews there met that same fate. Why didn't the
> > Jews save the Poles from both the Germans and the Soviets?
>
> The Jews were an opressed minority who had no arms, no military and
> no influece in politics. Besides that, the Poles were vicious
> murderous
> anti-semites who turned over tens of thousands of Jews gleefully to
> the Nazis,
> and then stole their property. You've got it ass backwards Amelia.
>
> You're getting silly now.
>
> > I do
> > not think it was possible for anyone to do that for if a Pope had
> > such power, JPII could stop the 40 million abortions.
> > ~Amelia~
>
> Popes don't have any power any more. Except over gullible
> Catholics.
> No one else care what they do or don't do. But some people are
> determined
> to show what they DID do.
>
> >
> > For the Record
> > by Joseph Sobran
> > Nothing, it seems, can dispel the notion that Pope Pius XII
> > maintained a "shameful silence" about the persecution of Jews
> > during World War II. But Ralph McInerny, in his book The
> Defamation
> > of Pius XII, quotes what Jews, prominent and otherwise, were
> saying
> > at the time.
> >
> > "Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian
> onslaught
> > on liberty," said Albert Einstein in 1940.
> >
> > In 1942 London's Jewish Chronicle remarked: "A word of sincere
> and
> > earnest appreciation is due from Jews to the Vatican for its
> > intervention in Berlin and Vichy on behalf of their tortured
> > co-religionists in France.... It was a step urged, to their
> honor,
> > by a number of Catholics, but for which we may be sure the Holy
> > Father himself, with his intense humanity and his clear sighted
> > understanding of the true and deadly implications of the assaults
> > on the Jewish people, needed no prompting."
> >
> > Dr. Alexander Shafran, chief rabbi of Romania, wrote in 1944: "In
> > these hard times our thoughts turn more than ever with respectful
> > gratitude to the Sovereign Pontiff, who has done so much for Jews
> > in general.... In our worst hours of trial, the generous aid and
> > noble support of the Holy See ... has been decisive. It is not
> easy
> > to find the proper words to express the relief and solace which
> the
> > magnanimous gesture of the Supreme Pontiff has given us, in
> > offering a large subsidy in order to alleviate the sufferings of
> > the deported Jews. Roumanian Jewry will never forget these facts
> of
> > historical importance."
> >
> > After the Allies liberated Rome in 1944, a Jewish Brigade Group
> > said in its Bulletin: "To the everlasting glory of the people of
> > Rome and the Roman Catholic Church we can state that the fate of
> > the Jews was alleviated by their truly Christian offers of
> > assistance and shelter. Even now, many still remain in the
> > religious homes and houses which opened their doors to protect
> them
> > from deportation to certain death."
> >
> > One survivor, quoted in a Hebrew daily in Israel, said: "If we
> have
> > been rescued, if Jews are still alive in Rome, come with us and
> > thank the Pope in the Vatican."
> >
> > A committee of the American Jewish Welfare Board, wrote to Pius
> > himself: "We have received reports from our military chaplains in
> > Italy of the aid and protection to Italian Jews by the Vatican,
> > priests, and church institutions during the Nazi occupation of
> the
> > country. We are deeply moved by this extraordinary display of
> > Christian love - the more so as we know the risk incurred by
> those
> > who afforded shelter to Jews.... From the bottom of our hearts we
> > send you the assurances of undying gratitude."
> >
> > The elders of one liberated camp went to Rome and presented Pius
> > with a letter: "Now that the victorious Allied troops have broken
> > our chains and liberated us from captivity and danger, may we,
> the
> > Jewish internees of Ferramonti, be permitted to express our
> deepest
> > and devoted thanks for the comfort and help which Your Holiness
> > deigned to grant us with fatherly concern and infinite kindness
> > throughout our years of internment and persecution.... In doing
> so
> > Your Holiness has as the first and highest authority on earth
> > fearlessly raised his universally respected voice, in the face of
> > our powerful enemies, in order to defend openly our rights to the
> > dignity of man.... When we were threatened with deportation to
> > Poland in 1942, Your Holiness extended his fatherly hand to
> protect
> > us, and stopped the transfer of the Jews interned in Italy,
> thereby
> > saving us from almost certain death. With deep confidence and
> hope
> > that the work of Your Holiness may be crowned with further
> success,
> > we beg to express our heartfelt thanks while we pray to the
> > Almighty: May Your Holiness reign for many years on this Holy See
> > and exert your beneficent influence over the destiny of the
> > nations."
> >
> > A few months later the World Jewish Congress sent a telegram to
> the
> > Holy See thanking it for its protection "under difficult
> conditions
> > to the persecuted Jews in German dominated Hungary."
> >
> > The chief rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, said: "I thank the
> Pope
> > and the Church from the bottom of my heart for all the help they
> > have afforded."
> >
> > Moshe Sharett, a leading Zionist, summed up his personal
> interview
> > with Pius: "I told him that my first duty was to thank him, and
> > through him, the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public,
> > for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews, to
> > save children, and Jews in general. We are deeply grateful to the
> > Catholic Church for what she did in those countries to help save
> > our brothers."
> >
> > Dr. Leon Kubowitzky of the World Jewish Council offered a large
> > monetary donation to the Vatican "in recognition of the work of
> the
> > Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions."
> >
> > Raffaele Cantoni of Italy's Jewish Welfare Committee said: "The
> > Catholic Church and the papacy have given proof that they have
> > saved as many Jews as they could."
> >
> > These noble and moving words require little comment. I record
> them
> > here for the honor of Pius, the Catholic Church, and the good men
> > who uttered them.
>
> Atza nice. Now, would you like to see some REAL documentary
> evidence?
>
> J2
> >
> > August 25, 2001
> >
> > Joe Sobran is a nationally syndicated columnist. He also writes
> > "Washington Watch" for The Wanderer, a weekly Catholic newspaper,
> > and edits SOBRAN'S, a monthly newsletter of his essays and
> columns.
> >
> > Get a free copy of Joe Sobran's lecture, "How Tyranny Came to
> > America" by subscribing to SOBRAN'S. See www.sobran.com for
> > details. For a free sample of SOBRAN'S or for more information,
> > call 800-513-5053.
> >
> > Copyright (c) 2001 by Griffin Internet Syndicate. All rights
> > reserved.
> >
> > Joseph Sobran Archives
> >
> > Back to LewRockwell.com Home Page
<A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org</A>
DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==========
CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are
sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis-
directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with
major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought.
That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and
always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no
credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply.
Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
========================================================================
Archives Available at:
http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html
<A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html";>Archives of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A>
http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
<A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/";>ctrl</A>
========================================================================
To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Om
