Hi community, I like the idea to improve the UI and I appreciate the enthusiasm Aurelien has put into it!
Darktable is a very nice piece of software feature-wise. Their developers have created some great, feature-rich, wonderful tool in their spare time and we are all very thankful for that. We love darktable, we love the many ways we can make our images better. Darktable is so good that a community has been evolved caring about it, and we, the community, are greateful for the developers to have crafted this wonderful non-destructive photo-editor. Over the past years I have read many usability improvement requests in the mailing list. This clearly shows how huge the demand is to improve that part of the software. What is a feature worth if it can not be understood or found or is too cumbersome to be used? In this thread we can read many nice requests that may be very valuable for darktable. I like Aureliens suggestions and others too. You know, sometimes less is more and making the UI more simple is helping more than adding new elements like customization and search bars - but I also think these features would be nice. UI Design is hard. You need to know the featureset you are targeting for and you need to play the new UI through often because each iteration usually reveals other issues (I know this part very well from my current professional situation). User eXperience designers can be very valuable and helpful here and if anyone would offer for volunteering to make the UX better would be a big win for the community! I think it would be great if we can create a feature request wiki where each contributor describes what exactly he means (his vision), referencing/contrasting the other suggestion-articles. Each community member can comment on these and drive them and with productive feedback. A final vote could bring us the clarity of what the users of the software desire the most. Kind regard Dave Am Mo., 8. Okt. 2018 um 14:22 Uhr schrieb Rolf Meyerhoff <r...@matrix44.de>: > Hi all > > I don't think that reordering the modules would change much. The problem > remains the same: Either there are way to many parameters at once on the > screen to keep track of or there is a lot of clicking involved to dive > in and out of the individual modules. > > I know that the advanced parameters are needed in many cases but the > defaults for most modules are usually very very good. So in practice > they often are just sitting there taking up precious screen space. Eg > the highlights/shadows module has a lot of parameters to fine tune the > result but most of the time a user will just increase shadows or > decrease highlights. > > One solution would be to strip down the modules but I think that any > simplification should begin at a higher level. > > What I am thinking of is a kind of a meta module on the first page with > just the essential parameters for raw development (linked internally to > the respective modules). As an example: > > White balance temp (with picker) > White balance tint > > Exposure level (with picker) > Black level > White level > Shadow level > Highlight level > > Crop button that jumps to or opens the crop module > > Saturation amount > Contrast amount > Local contrast amount > Haze removal amount > > Chroma denoise amount > Luma denoise amount > Lens correction on/off > Defringe on/off > > Sharpening amount > Sharpening threshold > > To make deep editing easier a ctrl click on a parameter could be used to > jump to the linked module (or something like that). > > This parameter choice is not set in stone but I think that it would be > enough for most casual users to edit their family and holiday pictures. > However, in a perfect world the choice of parameters could even be > customized by the user. > > Most commercial applications have a similar approach to basic raw > development and that makes them easy to use for casual users and > beginners. Most of them never touch advanced parameters at all. What > these applications don't have is the editing depth of Darktable with > it's fabulous module selection and it's masking system. The downside is > that there are so many modules with many parameters that can make > Darktable difficult to use at times, especially for a novice. > > Astripped down view for the important parameters backed by the power of > the modules could represent best of both worlds. > > However, I don't know the internals of DT well enough to estimate how > hard it would be to actually create something like that. > > Best regards, > > Rolf > > > Am 08.10.2018 um 11:52 schrieb Bruce Williams: > > I'm with Jørn! > > Great ideas, all. > > Certainly feeling the pain of modules changing size and having to > > constantly scroll up and down. > > Cheers, > > Bruce Williams > > ------------------------------ > > Mobile: +61 41 250 6349 > > > > audio2u.com <http://audio2u.com> > > brucewilliamsphotography.com <http://brucewilliamsphotography.com> > > shuttersincpodcast.com <http://shuttersincpodcast.com> > > sinelanguagepodcast.com <http://sinelanguagepodcast.com> > > > > e-mail <mailto:stu...@audio2u.com> | Twitter > > <http://twitter.com/@audio2u> | LinkedIn > > <http://au.linkedin.com/pub/bruce-williams/1/318/489> | Facebook > > <http://www.facebook.com/audio2u> | Soundcloud > > <http://www.soundcloud.com/audio2u> | Quora > > <https://www.quora.com/profile/Bruce-Williams-5> > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 7:07 PM Jørn Villesen Christensen > > <darktable-...@mettle.dk <mailto:darktable-...@mettle.dk>> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > An alternative suggestion (as I have also found the module list a > > bit... > > difficult to work with sometimes :-D ). I have often wished for a > > search > > box, so here is an idea; not thought through, but meant as > > inspiration: > > > > How about one big list of modules, but with collapsible sections (and > > thus not have the top buttons for bases, tones, colours, etc.). > > > > At the top of the list, there would be a search bar that would let > > you > > easily filter on > > - name of module > > - tags associated (from the developers) with the module, such as > > bases, colours, enhancements... > > > > In the list, there would be two active foldable sections: > > - Enabled modules. > > - All modules. > > > > You can right click on the list to > > - Create a new (nameable) section. > > - Order the sections (maybe All Modules should stay at the bottom, > > Enabled module should stay at top). > > - Add / Remove modules to/from the custom sections. > > - Add a colour marker to the custom sections. When the modules are > > displayed in the Enabled Modules list, they would be colour coded > > with > > that colour, or have a colour marker (dot). > > > > Perhaps the order of the modules (in the All Modules and Enabled > > Modules > > sections) could be selectable to > > - Sorted alphabetically > > - Sorted according to path in the pipeline. > > > > > > In addition to that, I do not quite like way that modules unfolds > > under > > it's name in the list. I think I would prefer a list of modules (as I > > described above :) ) and clicking on each module, would open it up > > in a > > separate Module Settings area. > > > > Reason: Sometimes when modules have (parametric and drawn) masks they > > become tall and thus, when open, requires me to scroll excessively > > (?) > > when going up/down the list, searching for something. When > > clicking on > > another module (thus triggering closing and opening of modules) the > > change in horizontal position of the list have sometimes also annoyed > > me. Having the list and the module settings separate, keeps the list > > more steady, compact, and thus I believe I can maintain a better > > overview. > > > > BR > > Jørn > > > > > > > > > > On 08/10/18 06:59, Dominik Markiewicz wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I've also my workflow, but it's a bit different then yours (crop > > is one > > > of basic corrections for me, I almost never do noise removal as > > a one of > > > first steps). I'm not a big fan of arbitrary change here. Agree > > with > > > Jochen that custom tabs could be quite nice. > > > > > > To achieve something similar I just enable modules, add them as > > > `favorite` and save this as a preset. Then add shortcuts for > > each of > > > presets and I can easily switch between my groups of modules. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Dominik > > > > > > pon., 8 paź 2018 o 06:42 Jochen Keil <jochen.k...@gmail.com > > <mailto:jochen.k...@gmail.com> > > > <mailto:jochen.k...@gmail.com <mailto:jochen.k...@gmail.com>>> > > napisał(a): > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 5:39 AM Aurélien Pierre > > > <rese...@aurelienpierre.com > > <mailto:rese...@aurelienpierre.com> > > <mailto:rese...@aurelienpierre.com > > <mailto:rese...@aurelienpierre.com>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > The real question here is : could you get past the change > and > > > benefit from it ? > > > > > > > > I'm biased here, since I developed repetitive strain > > injury in > > > the wrist at the early age of 23. So I'm basically trying to > > improve > > > the efficiency of the workflow by decreasing as much as > > possible the > > > number of user interactions on each picture, especially the > > mouse > > > interactions. > > > > > > > > If it's only for cropping, it can be fixed. At the end, I > > think > > > it really depends on how many hours you spend each week on > > > darktable. Because editing a whole wedding is definitely not > the > > > same as editing a bunch of holidays pictures, so I guess > > every user > > > will have a different sensibility to workflow matters and the > > > occasionnal users will mostly care about the overhead of the > > > refactoring (having to learn things again) while the regular > > users > > > will see it as a long-term investment. > > > > > > So, how about custom tabs, that can be named freely and > > where users > > > can add and arrange modules to their liking? > > > > > > The existing arrangement could be shipped as a preset, and > other > > > presets could be added easily. > > > > > > Make it configurable instead of trying to figure out what's > > right for > > > everyone (hint: won't happen) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Jochen > > > > > > > > > > Le 07/10/2018 à 23:02, Jason Polak a écrit : > > > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > > > I can certainly see the logic of your idea. I definitely > > prefer the > > > > current setup, if only because that's what I started with. I > > > think the > > > > only way to see if this is a good idea is to poll users > > because I am > > > > sure there are some that would like your way and some > > that prefer the > > > > current way. > > > > > > > > I do have a specific criticism about your approach, > > though. I think > > > > cropping should come early in the editing process. I care > > much more > > > > about adjusting the general exposure and crop > > (composition) before I > > > > could even think about lens correction or noise > > reduction. This is > > > > doubly so because I take a multi-pass view on editing. I > > first do > > > some > > > > basic edits of exposure, cropping, and tone curve > > adjustments to the > > > > shots I think are half-decent, and then promote the best > > ones to the > > > > next star level. Only with the highest star rating do I > > even consider > > > > spending time on noise reduction and lens correction as > > there is not > > > > much point on noise reduction in the bad images. > > > > > > > > Personally, I have found after a couple months it's easy > > to remember > > > > where all the modules are and changing it would only make it > > > worse for me. > > > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > > > On 2018-10-07 09:06 PM, Aurélien Pierre wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everyone ! > > > > > > > > I would like to propose a lifting for the UI in the > darkroom. > > > > > > > > *Problem** > > > > * > > > > > > > > Currently, the modules are separated in 5 tabs : > > > > > > > > * base > > > > * tones > > > > * colors > > > > * enhancements > > > > * effects > > > > > > > > But : > > > > > > > > * some modules in the color group affect the tones > > as well > > > (color > > > > zones, color balance) > > > > * some modules in the tone group affect the colors > > as well > > > (tone > > > > curves) > > > > * what is a "basic" module is rather arbitrary > > (basic == > > > low-level > > > > signal processing | traditionnal all-purpose > > features | > > > simple > > > > general settings ?) > > > > * some modules do basically the same thing (local > > contrast & > > > > equalizer, sharpen & high-pass filter, tonecurve > > & basecurve) > > > > and yet you find them in different tabs > > > > > > > > *Workflow** > > > > * > > > > > > > > Over 7-8 years using dt, I have converged (and advocated) > > to the > > > > following systematic workflow : > > > > > > > > /Step 1 : clean and neutralize the picture/ > > > > > > > > 1. normalize the white balance > > > > 2. normalize the exposure to fit the histogram > > > > 3. normalize the contrast and tonemap > > > > 4. clean the noise > > > > 5. correct the lens > > > > 6. recover the saturated highlights > > > > 7. apply a color profile and LUT > > > > > > > > At the end of this step, the image should look as > > close as > > > possible > > > > to the reality. This step is only aimed at correcting > > the input > > > > signal to revert the flaws of the sensor technology > > > > > > > > /Step 2 : tone the picture/ > > > > > > > > 1. adjust the local and global contrast to be visually > > > pleasing and > > > > fit the photographer's intentions > > > > 2. adjust the lightness > > > > > > > > This step is the first "artistic" step and is more > > efficient > > > if the > > > > image has been cleaned before. But this uses the > > colorbalance > > > to fit > > > > the gamma. > > > > > > > > /Step 3 : grade the picture/ > > > > > > > > 1. adjust the hue to set the atmosphere > > > > 2. adjust the saturation to get natural colors > > > > 3. remap some colors to get better skin or sky tones > > > > > > > > This step is exactly what is done in video > > post-production. > > > > > > > > /Step 4 : enhance the picture/ > > > > > > > > 1. crop > > > > 2. fix the rotation and the perspective > > > > 3. fix the sharpness (sharpening, high-pass) > > > > 4. correct the skin, spots, stains, sensor dust, > > etc. (spots and > > > > retouch) > > > > 5. correct the shapes (liquify) > > > > 6. add filters (vignette, frame, watermark). > > > > > > > > This step is more or less what you would do in pixels > > editors > > > (Gimp, > > > > Photoshop). > > > > > > > > *Proposal* > > > > > > > > I would like to refactor the UI in 4 tabs : > > > > > > > > 1. *correction :* for all the signal-processing and > > purely technical > > > > modules (mostly, the first in the pixelpipe, working in > > > > camera-relative RGB) : > > > > * *sensor patterns handling :* > > > > o scalepixels > > > > o rotatepixels > > > > o demosaic > > > > o flip > > > > o rawprepare > > > > * *color correction handling :* > > > > o invert > > > > o temperature > > > > o colorout > > > > o colorin > > > > o colorchecker > > > > * *dynamic range handling:* > > > > o exposure > > > > o clipping > > > > o colorreconstruction > > > > o shadhi > > > > o highlights > > > > o profile_gamma > > > > o tonemap > > > > o graduatednd > > > > o dither > > > > * *optics handling :* > > > > o defringe > > > > o hazeremoval > > > > o lens > > > > o cacorrect > > > > * *noise handling :* > > > > o bilateral > > > > o nlmeans > > > > o denoiseprofile > > > > o rawdenoise > > > > o hotpixels > > > > 2. *tones**: *for creative modules affecting lightness > > and contrast > > > > * *global contrast :* > > > > o tonecurves > > > > o basecurves > > > > o colisa > > > > o levels > > > > * *tone-mapping :* > > > > o zonesystem > > > > o global tonemap > > > > o relight > > > > * *local contrast :* > > > > o atrous > > > > o clahe > > > > o equalizer (legacy) > > > > 3. *colors :* for creative modules affecting lightness > > and contrast > > > > * *RGB :* > > > > o colorbalance > > > > o channelmixer > > > > * *HSL :* > > > > o colorzones > > > > o splittoning > > > > * *Lab* : > > > > o colorcontrast > > > > o colorcorrection > > > > * *color-mapping :* > > > > o colormapping > > > > o colortransfer > > > > o lowlight > > > > o colorize > > > > * *saturation* : > > > > o vibrance > > > > o velvia > > > > o monochrome > > > > 4. *enhancements :* for creative filters and pixel > > alteration > > > modules > > > > * *sharpness* : > > > > o sharpen > > > > o highpass > > > > * *shoftness* : > > > > o bloom > > > > o lowpass > > > > * *inpainting* : > > > > o spots > > > > o retouch > > > > * *structure deformation :* > > > > o crop and rotate (what's its IOP name ?) > > > > o liquify > > > > o ashift > > > > * *creative* : > > > > o watermark > > > > o borders > > > > o grain > > > > o vignette > > > > > > > > *Benefits* > > > > > > > > I think that would draw a path, mostly one-directional, > > to follow > > > during > > > > edits : every tab is a step, you go into the next tab > > only when > > > you are > > > > finished with the previous one. It would result in less > > clicking and > > > > browsing and more guidance for new users. It would draw less > > > confusion > > > > as well regarding why some modules of similar > > functionnality are put > > > > away in separate tabs. > > > > > > > > Thanks for reading ! What do you think ? > > > > > > > > Aurélien. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a > > mail to > > > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%252bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > darktable developer mailing list > > > > to unsubscribe send a mail to > > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%252bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%252bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org>> > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > darktable developer mailing list > > > to unsubscribe send a mail to > > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%252bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > Dominik Markiewicz > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > > > > -- > > www.talldanestale.dk <http://www.talldanestale.dk> > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > darktable developer mailing list > > to unsubscribe send a mail to > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > <mailto:darktable-dev%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org> > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > darktable developer mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > ___________________________________________________________________________ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
