Jerry Stuckle wrote:
And also not to weigh in (much) about what's actually important about
OOP (Alan Kay has more than once pointed out that it's message passing
and isolation that are important, polymorphism and inheritance are just
what seem to get the attention.) By the way: really nice discussion of
the "state of OOP" at
http://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop
(on a completely un-related matter, I happened to be looking at Erlang
from an OO perspective and stumbled across this rather nice interview
with Rolph Johnson and Joe Armstrong - of "Design Patterns" and Erlang
fame, respectively).
That is Alan Kay's opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Others
consider inheritance and polymorphism to be quite important. But then
those are people who have actually used polymorphism and inheritance
effectively.
But then such is the opinion of another academic who has had no (or
very little) real-world business experience.
Hmm... so the INVENTOR of object oriented programming is not an expert?
Won the ACM Turing award. That sort of thing.
Academics get paid to write papers. Business people get paid to do work.
Sounds like your idea of an expert is some grunt who wrote financial
software for mainframes. Mine is more like people who push the state of
the art, and those who get hired to help make big decisions.
Jerry Stuckle wrote:
And no, I did NOT refer to "reading a few pages on wikipedia and
writing a little php". I do not consider either to be reliable.
Rather, I referred to recognized experts in the field such as Booch,
Rumbaugh and Stroustrup.
Kind of flip-flopping to cite "recognized experts" after dismissing guys
like Donovan, Saltzer and Corbato as "But they never were that highly
regarded except in academia" - when discussing operating systems and
systems programming.
Yes, all academics who have never (AFAIK) done any business programming.
You sure don't know Donovan - he was pretty much the goto guy for
executive suite consulting in IT. Cambridge Technology Group was (may
still be) the go to MIS consulting firm - Donovan made a mint.
On the more general side - if I'm interested in operating systems, guys
who do "business programming" are not where I'd look for expertise. I'd
look for guys who built large time sharing systems.
Your personal level of ignorace is pretty staggering - you really don't
seem to have any credibility for deciding who is and isn't an expert.
And then to cite Booch, Rumbaugh and Stroustrup re. OO programming (ok,
Stroustrup wrote C++) - but if you want to cite experts - how about Dahl
and Nygaard (Simula, pretty much invented software objects) and Alan Kay
(Smalltalk, pretty much invented OOP). Maybe Joe Armstrong (Erlang) for
a countervailing view.
Booch and Rumbaugh also were real world programmers, not just
academics. Separately they created OO design patters which were later
merged into UML - the most commonly used design pattern today.
Well.. perhaps the most talked about.
Others are academics.
And BTW, it isn't limited to programming where the business world
thinks little of academics. It goes for many professions.
But you're too caught up in your own little world to even try to
understand REAL experts. Your mantra is "I have my mind made up and
no one will change it".
Sounds more like you're describing yourself, Jerry.
First, you've got to understand who the "real experts" are, rather than
finding ones who simply backstop your pre-defined opinion (and.. experts
are nothing without citations). Beyond that, why is it that you always
seem to draw from narrow confines of IBM (or, where Booch and Rumbaugh
are concerned, Rational, now part of IBM). IBM is an important part of
the computing universe, no contest; but the field, and it's leading
edge, are much broader than just IBM.
Miles Fidelman
Sure. Real experts have real experience in the field, using the tools
to write real programs. They get paid to do things which make the
company money. They don't just sit around and write papers and maybe
teach a class now and then.
I would love to see some of your "experts" in a real-world business
environment. My bet is they would all fall flat on their faces.
An awful lot of the academics I know have also started quite successful
high tech firms (or joined academica after retiring from same). (Granted
that MIT and Harvard professors aren't run-of-the mill academics).
--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
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