On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Joel Rees <joel.r...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Tom H <tomh0...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 9:18 PM, Joel Rees <joel.r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In this case, yeah, experimental is experimental, but there are >>> limits. And that was not the way to have done it. >> >> I'm not sure what you're referring to. The introduction of systemd in >> Debian or the recent removal of the systemd-shim dependency in testing >> and unstable? > > The way it was introduced on Fedora. Like I said in the part I elided, > there should have been a separate distro, advertised for those who > wanted to join the fun. Oh. I hadn't linked the two. Thanks for the clarification. Fedora's stated purpose is to be a bleeding edge distro and its unstated purpose is to be a testing ground for RHEL. It pulled out of introducing systemd in F14 at the last minute, to Lennart's vocal displeasure, and then introduced it in F15. As a laptop Fedora user, the F15 introduction was OK (for me) but I still had a site using Fedora servers (since transitioned to Ubuntu LTS) and that was more painful than I would've liked. Fedora could've adopted the Debian way and allowed its users to use "init=/path/to/systemd" on the kernel cmdline for the F15 cycle. They didn't - and there may have been political reasons for this - and we survived. There have been worse releases in the past. > Debian's introduction was not so great either, but at least they > waited a couple of years longer. Debian's so concerned with upgradability that a transition for jessie or jessie+1 would've likely been just as painful. Although I would've preferred for Debian to default to systemd in jessie+1 in order to wait for systemd developement to settle down and for it to have been in RHEL 7 for a while, but systemd-fan-DD filed a CTTE bug and... > The shim? Well, the powers that want systemd on all things Linux want > to push all things sysv-init off, so we should expect the shim to > disappear from time to time, to "help" recalcitrant admins and devs to > quit depending on it. And that's also using engineering for politics. Now that logind and cgmanager can work together, systemd-shim is OK. The real non-systemd-init killer is around the corner: the introduction of kdbus into stable kernels will necessitate someone to create a dbusmanager the way that ubuntu created cgmanager for the use of a modern kernel and a modern udev. But there's still time for those flame wars to erupt. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sy5cFBKOJ_K5Cu-_cCVhCW=fEfA0cjRo8=3e-1oakw...@mail.gmail.com