On 11/24/2014 1:08 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Jerry Stuckle wrote: >> On 11/24/2014 10:52 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> On 25/11/14 01:57, Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>> On 11/24/2014 8:54 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote: >>>>> Jerry Stuckle wrote: >>>>>> On 11/24/2014 2:56 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: <snip> >>>>>>>> Yes, and while the Linux community continues, Debian will >>>>>>>> lose a lot of dedicated users due to this decision. Possibly >>>>>>>> another fork, or possibly another distro. But Debian will >>>>>>>> lose users. >>>>>>> 1. At best that's pure speculation. With all due respect to >>>>>>> Gypsy Rose Lee (who is really just a naughty boy), some of us >>>>>>> "engineer types" place little stock in soothsaying. >>>>>>> >>>>>> It is more than speculation. Read the posts here - some people >>>>>> (including me) are already looking for alternatives. And so are >>>>>> many companies I know of who have looked at jessie. >>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. It's false logic to conclude *only* losses from change (and >>>>>>> duplicitous to deny that systemd is your only choice) - it >>>>>>> overlooks the possibility that the additional *choice* of >>>>>>> systemd will attract more users (and more instances - you do >>>>>>> know that many "administrators" manage large numbers of >>>>>>> instances, right?). There is no evidence to show that other >>>>>>> distros and projects that adopted systemd as the *only* choice >>>>>>> lost users - quite the reverse. >>>>>>> >>>>>> These are the ones who are abandoning Debian. Some of them came >>>>>> to Debian because it was one of the last holdouts. But they see >>>>>> the way Debian is going also, and don't like it. They'll >>>>>> probably end up on BSD. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sure, people who only run software in .deb packages won't be >>>>>>>> hit as hard. >>>>>>> At all. And then only if *they* don't elect to stay with sysv. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But that is definitely not the entire Debian user base. >>>>>>> >>>>>> I never said it was the entire Debian user base. But even >>>>>> staying with sysv is only a temporary situation. They see the >>>>>> handwriting on the wall - whether you agree with it or not. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Those that deploy customisations in the "Debian Way" should >>>>>>> file bug reports if those customisations are not supported *if* >>>>>>> they change init systems. Upgrades have *always* supported >>>>>>> customisations done the "Debian Way" - and I have every >>>>>>> confidence they will continue to do so >>>>>>> >>>>>> And exactly what is the "Debian way" to add custom (NOT >>>>>> customized pre-packaged) software to the system? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Alien, checkinstall, and equivs come to mind. >>> Agreed (also fs guidelines) >>> >>>>> Then again, Debian has, to date, been pretty friendly to the >>>>> basic: download to /usr/local/src; unzip; untar ./configure; make; >>>>> make install >>> and "checkinstall" >>>>> >>>> Do you expect customers to build .deb files for every piece of >>>> software they create? >>> No, I expect the admin to 'try' and do that (e.g. checkinstall) or >>> install the upstream package to the appropriate place where it *will* >>> withstand upgrade. But not everyone follows BP (e.g. ITIL, PCI, and >>> whatever relevant guidelines apply to their use-case). I don't know what >>> your use-case is... >>> >> These are system admins who have either started with Unix in the 1980's, >> or people who learned from those sysadmins. Back then you did put stuff >> in /bin and/or /sbin, for instance. And the company is not changing. > > > Well, just to be accurate, most folks who started with Unix in the 80s > install local stuff into > /usr/... > and > /usr/local/.... > > and there's also /opt > > And most well-formed source trees that I've come across are designed to > download into /usr/local/src and make into /usr/local by default. > > Cheers, > > Miles >
For user stuff, yes. But for system tools, they often installed executables in /bin and/or /sbin. And they install other files in /etc, /var, etc., as appropriate. A LOT of unix systems did this, because there were no packagers. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54737bc5.8000...@gmail.com
