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On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Brian LeRoux <[email protected]> wrote: > Composability being the big reasoning. Maybe that is a false consideration > for our end users. I know I hate chatty tools (and I hate telling them to > be quiet) and that could just be a preference from java scars. > > Some very light reading attached from 'Classic Shell Scripting' regarding > UNIX tools philosophy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Andrew Grieve <[email protected]>wrote: > >> cd and rm don't make network requests. There's plenty of precedent for >> outputting by default. zip, wget, rsync, apt-get, brew. >> >> You can always use --quiet if you pipe our command and have it not output. >> Am I missing something about your use-case? >> >> We have a practical problem right now in that we get a lot of bad bug >> reports where we need to tell users to re-run with --verbose. Almost every >> day in IRC, someone gets told to re-run with --verbose. >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Brian LeRoux <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Well, those aren't UNIX tools. Those are userland tools. (So are we, I >> > know.) >> > >> > Imagine if `cd` output something every time you moved. Or rm was always >> > noisy. Super annoying. Anyhow, the book Classic Shell Scripting explains >> > this better than I. Recommended reading. >> > >> > I'd rather our tools followed UNIX philosophy here and where quiet by >> > defaul and noisy if asked. For the record, I've talked to Issac about >> just >> > this issue in node b/c it makes composing scripts more difficult when >> you >> > have to pipe garbage output around and a tacit plan for npm was to make >> it >> > quiet by default someday when it gets stable. (Who knows if that is >> still >> > the case.) >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Andrew Grieve <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I don't think that's really true for other similar tools. >> > > E.g. "npm install" reports progress by default >> > > E.g. "git clone" shows progress by default. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Brian LeRoux <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > > The convention for UNIX tools is to be quiet by default and fail >> > > noisily. A >> > > > well writ script should exit quietly so you can chain commands. (Or >> > pipe, >> > > > etc.) >> > > > >> > > > I'd prefer we added a --verbose flag. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson < >> > [email protected] >> > > > >wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > I'd rather we call it -q and --quiet though; that's a pretty >> common >> > > > > convention for Unix tools. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Braden Shepherdson < >> > > [email protected] >> > > > > >wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > +1 >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Andrew Grieve < >> > [email protected] >> > > > > >wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> I think this was discussed before but I can't find the thread. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Is anyone not in favour of making the tools verbose by default >> and >> > > > > having >> > > > > >> a >> > > > > >> --silent flag instead? >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> Makes it much easier to get good debug reports and lets users >> know >> > > > when >> > > > > >> slow things are taking place. >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >
