Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now, but I will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later (some of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not constructive. If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the sake of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about others almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being negative towards. Another angle: Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your views are your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF" make it sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just makes people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to contribute to a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where people are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email tone positive even when you disagree. Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers (we are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful: - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one up. - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared instance. - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a collaboration between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained, but didn't do the work to make it possible). - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although we decided not to stick with it). Why can we not use Github issues? - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github. - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that hasn't happened yet. - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do issue trackers count as "data"? - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have. - d...@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since that's meant for cross-project discussion. On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is > > offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why *I* > > dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the Stack > > Overflow survey). > > > > > Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the tone > you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal attack > on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments only > reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree with me, > because we're still here. > > Joe > > Ross > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bows...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy? > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < > > ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional > > > influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and > > > participation. > > > > > > > > That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are > clearly > > people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight > > the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and > > I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave. > > > > > > > To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they > > > are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose > > > changes that work. > > > > > > > > Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose > rules > > aren't as rigid. That could work too. > > > > > > > Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. > > > Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some > > > individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their > > > voices are usually drowned out. > > > > > > > > I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we > donated > > the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained > > about so many times by our community members who have followed us since > we > > started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who > feel > > like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince > > everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since > your > > organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of > the > > JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't > > forked yet. > > > > Joe > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > > Sent from my Windows Phone > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Carlos Santana<mailto:csantan...@gmail.com> > > > Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org> > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy? > > > > > > Joe, > > > Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while > > > at the same time without being punched in the face :-) > > > > > > Marcel, > > > I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk > > > to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova > > > developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the > > > understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place > like > > I layout in my email? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bows...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <csantan...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github. > > > > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Use Github Issues > > > > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way > > > > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create > > > > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this > > > > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate > > > GitHub > > > > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems > > > > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to > > > > dump JIRA > > > and > > > > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache > > > > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less > > > > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache > > > > > Foundation, > > > to > > > > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the > > > > > community > > > they > > > > > should still continue to interface in Github. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving > > > > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to > > > > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing > > > > that I think we > > > don't > > > > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how > > > these > > > > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared > > > > about > > > such > > > > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef > > > > > <stephane.bachel...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > As a survey it's always biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem > > > > > > is > > > > > clearly > > > > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. > > > > > > They > > > > think > > > > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days". > > > > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web > > > > > > nor anything relative to the mobile. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most > > > > > > of > > > them > > > > > are > > > > > > native :) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Stéphane Bachelier, > > > > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09 > > > > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2 > > > > > > > > > > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire < > > > > > > jose-luc.volta...@netdevices.fr > > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the > > > details > > > > > > about > > > > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the > > > > > > > work > > > > > done > > > > > > > and appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think > > > > > > > I am > > > > the > > > > > > > only one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as > > > > > > > good as > > > > > native > > > > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do > > > > > > > for > > > the > > > > > > apps I > > > > > > > work on! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <ty...@drumpants.com > >: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the > > > > > > > > graphics > > > > and > > > > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few > > > > > > > > possible > > > > > reasons: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 > > > > > > > > years > > > > ago. > > > > > > Even > > > > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps > > > > > > > > still > > > > hang > > > > > in > > > > > > > > people's minds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, > > > > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern > > > > > > > > WebKit views, > > > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that > > > > > > > > recommended > > > > using > > > > > > CSS > > > > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed > > > > > > > > my > > > whole > > > > > way > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because > > > > > > > > of > > > > it. I > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like > > > > > > > > that > > > for > > > > > > > making > > > > > > > > top-notch apps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port > > > > > > > > their > > > > > iOS-style > > > > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > expect > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do > > > > > > > > about > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tyler > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks < > > > > > > > mich...@michaelbrooks.ca> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the > > > > > > > > >score > > > is > > > > > low > > > > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > default > > > > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - > > > > > > > > >Git > > > > > Bash, > > > > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven > > > > > > > > >development, and > > > > no > > > > > > > > >full > > > > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving > > > > > > > > >this and > > > > as > > > > > > > > >Visual > > > > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those > > > > > > > > >survey > > > > > > results > > > > > > > > >improve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel < > > > > d.top...@cadenas.de> > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the > > > > developers > > > > > > > > >using > > > > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing > > > nothing > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > >the > > > > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the > > > > JS->Native->JS > > > > > > > > >bridge. > > > > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos > > > > communitcation > > > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > >> plugins. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything > > > > special > > > > > is > > > > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs > > > which > > > > > are > > > > > > > > >not > > > > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of > > > > > > > > >> that > > > :-) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power > > > > > > > > >> of the > > > > > > > > >cordova > > > > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > > > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bows...@gmail.com] > > > > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56 > > > > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org > > > > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making > > > > > > > > >> developers > > > > happy? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, > > > > > > > > >> because > > > > > > > > >everyone can > > > > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova > > > > applications > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova > > > application > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up > > > > > > > > >> re-writing it > > > > and > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it > > > > > > > > >> natively > > > > because > > > > > > > > >that's > > > > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time > > > > > > > > >> soon, and > > > > > both > > > > > > > > >those > > > > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can > > > > > > > > >> create a > > > > > shitty > > > > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for > > > > > > > > >> a > > > > > reason, > > > > > > > > >and at > > > > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult > > > > > > > > >> because I > > > > > think > > > > > > > > >Drupal > > > > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I > > > > > > > > >> don't > > > > think > > > > > we > > > > > > > > >should > > > > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most > > > > > > > > >> developers > > > are > > > > > > > > >terrible > > > > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're > > > > > > > > >> releasing > > > > isn't > > > > > > > > >terrible. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo > > > > > > > > ><leo.treggi...@intel.com> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey > > > > > > > > >> > ( > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015 > > ). > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies: > > > > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2% > > > > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0% > > > > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2% > > > > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6% > > > > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8% > > > > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2% > > > > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2% > > > > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% > > ************** > > > > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7% > > > > > > > > >> > Other 57.3% > > > > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech > > > > > > > > >> > but > > > > have > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some > > > > > > > > >> > possible > > > > > answers. > > > > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but > > > > > > > > >> > rather > > > > > looking > > > > > > > > >for > > > > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express > > > > > frustration > > > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > > >> Cordova: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to > the > > > > > answer > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native > apps > > in > > > > > > > > >JavaScript + > > > > > > > > >> > HTML5 > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem > (learnability | > > > > > > > > >usability | > > > > > > > > >> > reliability) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, > articles, > > > > > books) > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Leo > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tyler Freeman > > > > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent from mobile > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Cordialement, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Voltaire José-luc > > > > > > > Directeur Technique > > > > > > > Netdevices > > > > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.volta...@netdevices.fr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Carlos Santana > > > > > <csantan...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Carlos Santana > > > <csantan...@gmail.com> > > > > > >
