Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? I think the "yes-and" style is more about continuing the momentum of the conversation, and also having fun!
The "yes-and" style is independent of your opinion about the matter, or the facts of its consequences. To me, it is about being Socratic: say "Sure!" and then ask what the next steps are, or what the expected consequences will be. For example, in the oauth2 discussion, I think Jan used a bit of "yes-and" style, when he said "Yes, let's keep oauth2, provided a developer fixes its bugs; otherwise not." And I think the community collectively answered: "Yes, let's throw it out." On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:22 PM, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > > that we have the best of the project in mind > > If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are > stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with > current approach – he is right. > > I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. Surely, he > trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely ortogonal > to trust. > > Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution. > Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t imagine, > how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing barbarian > in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > > > That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here > > Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to > unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out, that > if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself > first. > > > [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive > feedback, when you > > have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > > Absolutely. +1000. > > ermouth > > 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > > > > > On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > > >> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > > > > > > That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is > > only > > > allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people are > > > afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How can > we > > > avoid that? > > > > I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we have > > the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem disagreeing > > with each other. > > > > If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave the > > project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions about > > our culture. How can I improve that? > > > > > > > Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. > > > > I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy > excuses > > of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called this > out > > in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages on > > this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s the > kind > > of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. > > > > Best > > Jan > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ermouth > > > > > > 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > > > > >> Of course, this could have gone this way: > > >> > > >> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and > why > > >> this is supposed to work?” > > >> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” > > >> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say > > ‘but’, > > >> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?” > > >> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we > > have > > >> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > disagreeing > > >> with each other.” > > >> > > >> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… > > >> > > >> Best > > >> Jan > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like “Starting > > post > > >>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of > contributors > > >>> with this. > > >>> > > >>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, but > > to > > >>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable, > > then > > >>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. > > >>> > > >>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed – > > >> nobody > > >>> dare to say ‘but’. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ermouth > > >>> > > >>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Hi Jan > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > >>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like > that > > we > > >>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback > styles > > >>>>> and how they are different? > > >>>> > > >>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our previous > > >>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on your > > >> example > > >>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean to > > >> re-play > > >>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out anyone > in > > >>>> particular, so I changed things a little): > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> “But…”-style: > > >>>> > > >>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > > >>>> > > >>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses that.” > > >>>> > > >>>> “…” > > >>>> > > >>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion > leaves > > >> the > > >>>> project> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> “Yes, and…”-style: > > >>>> > > >>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > > >>>> > > >>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We still > have > > >> the > > >>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ mailing > list > > >> for > > >>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” > > >>>> > > >>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as > inviting a > > >>>> name as design@ is.” > > >>>> > > >>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be even > > more > > >>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our > mailing > > >> list > > >>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, maybe > we > > >>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ > > >>>> > > >>>> <fruitful conversation continues> > > >>>> > > >>>> * * * > > >>>> > > >>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more > > >> efficient, > > >>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, so > > >> cutting > > >>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 purpose > > as > > >> a > > >>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more > contributors > > >> is > > >>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. It > makes > > >> sure > > >>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse ideas > > making > > >>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. > > Long-term, > > >> it > > >>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, but it > > does > > >>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project right > > >> after, > > >>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or simply > > >> burned > > >>>> out. > > >>>> > > >>>> * * * > > >>>> > > >>>> Best > > >>>> Jan > > >>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> ,,,^..^,,, > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > >> > > >> > > > > -- > > Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > > > >
