>> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently. > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several times, when someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh ML. But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help answer the question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the question in group again. - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is growing too fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 to 10,000 in the past months.
>> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching itself. > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information? - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for most technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on this. A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a better understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. Best, Jark On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark for your nice > thoughts. > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason is that a > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a lot of people > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even though, for > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the DingTalk > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. For these > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming ruined. In > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I think we can > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such as: > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more convenient and > fast. > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing list > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > 7. other reasons. > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > Best, Hequn > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation team has done > a > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is not about > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high growth pain > IMHO. > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use > > mailing list frequently. > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people more on > > mailing lists? > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with lower cost > than > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the case too. > The > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it though. > When I > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were typically a log > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of them never > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may have changed > > now, I'm sure. > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow good > apache > > practices. > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with Flink > China > > operation team". > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on user-zh's low > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation team as part > of > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on ideas and > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are all **devs** > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the main > question > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** voted or > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the purpose of > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something we can > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China operation team > as > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to join related > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on. > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group with 10k > > > members! > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the Chinese-speaking > > world > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow > good > > > apache practices. > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user support via Chat > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people away from > > that, > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink in China. > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using mailing lists, > or > > > will it hinder adoption? > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but people > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently. > > > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > > > searching > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu. > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is > > not > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related information? > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help when they > > run > > > into problems with a system? > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk. > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but > people > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list frequently. > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, although in hours. > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using mailing list. > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support searching. > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > > > searching > > > > itself. > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on Baidu. > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. IMO, Baidu is > > not > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > > > > > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most questions > are > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 people now. > > > Here're > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and updates, > > broadcast > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer questions > > and > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) We probably > > all > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really searchable, topics > lost > > > > fast, > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening doing any > > > homework > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and haven't > > really > > > > look > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the group is also > > > going > > > > > down because of the problems. > > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists nowadays for > > its > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic focused, etc. > > And > > > I > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should happen in > the > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what that DingTalk > > > group > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work together with our > > > > user-zh > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of just let it > > drive > > > to > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on how we should > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should only be used > for > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, broadcasting > live > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions should be > diverted > > > to > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk group so that > > they > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > > > >> > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old and I wanted > > to > > > > hear > > > > >> how things are going. > > > > >> > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 ?), I would > > have > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I also > understand > > > that > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last century. > > > > >> > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > > > >> May: 62 > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > > > >> > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help adoption of that > > > > mailing > > > > >> list? > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list showing up on > Baidu > > > when > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it makes > sense > > to > > > > >> have > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> Robert > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > That's great. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
