>From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all our efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use other providers."
I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using apache mailing list. Best, Kurt On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what will > happen. > > Best, > Kurt > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> > wrote: > >> Thank you all for working on this! >> >> +1 on conducting a survey! >> >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a similar >> example, also mentioning qq.com: >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to find out >> why >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. >> > >> > Best, >> > Kurt >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > > Hi Gordon, >> > > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of people >> told me >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I think >> your >> > > information gives a good answer! >> > > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of `user-zh-subscribe@`. >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to subscribe using >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize more >> about >> > it >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the users if >> they >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing `user-zh-subscribe@`? >> This >> > > may >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. >> > > >> > > - Network problem. >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, I told >> one >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows everything >> becomes >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we can do >> is >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use Gmail >> in >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. >> > > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this week. I >> > want >> > > to let more people join in the survey. >> > > >> > > Best, Hequn >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < >> > tzuli...@apache.org> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Hi all, >> > > > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive as a >> > moderator >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: >> > > > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone trying to >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, and not >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can do in >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in >> subscribing >> > to >> > > > the Apache mailing list. >> > > > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email >> domains, >> > for >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being blocked. This >> > would >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing list >> since >> > > they >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email >> > conversations >> > > > from the mailing list either. >> > > > >> > > > Best, >> > > > Gordon >> > > > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, but >> > people >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to use >> mailing >> > > > list >> > > > > frequently. >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people >> more >> > on >> > > > > mailing lists? >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. Several >> times, >> > > when >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use user-zh >> ML. >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could you help >> > answer >> > > > the >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the >> question in >> > > > group >> > > > > again. >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group is >> growing >> > > too >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from 5,000 >> to >> > > > 10,000 >> > > > > in the past months. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support >> searching. >> > We >> > > > can >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports searching >> itself. >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the link: >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. >> > > > > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related >> > information? >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still Baidu for >> most >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some experience on >> this. >> > > > > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to have a >> better >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users need. >> > > > > >> > > > > Best, >> > > > > Jark >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and Jark >> for >> > > your >> > > > > nice >> > > > > > thoughts. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the reason >> is >> > > that >> > > > a >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There are a >> lot of >> > > > > people >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk group. Even >> > > though, >> > > > > for >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved in the >> > > > DingTalk >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the group. >> For >> > > > these >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming >> ruined. In >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and Jark, I >> > think >> > > we >> > > > > can >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from users, such >> as: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is more >> > convenient >> > > > and >> > > > > > fast. >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing list. >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing list. >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user mailing list >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user mailing >> > list >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li <bowenl...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China operation >> team >> > has >> > > > > done >> > > > > > a >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This discussion is >> not >> > > > about >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a high >> growth >> > > pain >> > > > > > IMHO. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, >> but >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users >> to >> > > use >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate people >> > more >> > > > on >> > > > > > > mailing lists? >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast with >> lower >> > > > cost >> > > > > > than >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll be the >> case >> > > > too. >> > > > > > The >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down with it >> > > though. >> > > > > > When I >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions were >> > typically a >> > > > log >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". Many of >> > them >> > > > > never >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations may >> have >> > > > changed >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND follow >> > good >> > > > > > apache >> > > > > > > practices. >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include and with >> > > Flink >> > > > > > China >> > > > > > > operation team". >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question on >> > user-zh's >> > > > low >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China operation >> team >> > as >> > > > part >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough on >> ideas >> > and >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted +1 are >> all >> > > > > **devs** >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna be the >> main >> > > > > > question >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation team** >> > voted >> > > or >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the them the >> > > > purpose >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's something >> we >> > > can >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink China >> > operation >> > > > team >> > > > > > as >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging them to >> join >> > > > > related >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from now on. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a chat group >> > with >> > > > 10k >> > > > > > > > members! >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the >> > > > Chinese-speaking >> > > > > > > world >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow AND >> > > follow >> > > > > > good >> > > > > > > > apache practices. >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing user >> support >> > via >> > > > > Chat >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move people >> away >> > > > from >> > > > > > > that, >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of Flink >> in >> > > > China. >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with using >> mailing >> > > > lists, >> > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask questions, >> but >> > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list >> > > > > frequently. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support >> > searching. >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which >> > > supports >> > > > > > > > searching >> > > > > > > > > itself. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up on >> > > Baidu. >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. >> IMO, >> > > > Baidu >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related >> > > > information? >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China finding help >> > when >> > > > > they >> > > > > > > run >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Best, >> > > > > > > > Robert >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the DingTalk. >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask >> questions, >> > but >> > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use mailing list >> > > > > frequently. >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, >> although >> > in >> > > > > hours. >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by using >> mailing >> > > > list. >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support >> > > searching. >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh which >> > > supports >> > > > > > > > searching >> > > > > > > > > itself. >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not showing up >> on >> > > > Baidu. >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve this. >> IMO, >> > > > Baidu >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related information. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, >> > > > > > > > > Jark >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < >> bowenl...@gmail.com> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's because most >> > > > questions >> > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to 10,000 >> > people >> > > > now. >> > > > > > > > Here're >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news and >> > updates, >> > > > > > > broadcast >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for ask-answer >> > > > > questions >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not 10,000...) >> We >> > > > > probably >> > > > > > > all >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really >> searchable, >> > > > topics >> > > > > > lost >> > > > > > > > > fast, >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without evening >> doing >> > > any >> > > > > > > > homework >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group chat and >> > > haven't >> > > > > > > really >> > > > > > > > > look >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in the >> group >> > is >> > > > > also >> > > > > > > > going >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still exists >> > > nowadays >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > its >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, topic >> > focused, >> > > > > etc. >> > > > > > > And >> > > > > > > > I >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer should >> > > happen >> > > > in >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified what >> that >> > > > > DingTalk >> > > > > > > > group >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should work >> together >> > > with >> > > > > our >> > > > > > > > > user-zh >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and kind of >> just >> > let >> > > > it >> > > > > > > drive >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to reflect on >> how >> > we >> > > > > should >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat should >> only be >> > > > used >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and updates, >> > > > broadcasting >> > > > > > live >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical discussions >> should >> > be >> > > > > > diverted >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the DingTalk >> group >> > so >> > > > > that >> > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few months old >> and >> > I >> > > > > wanted >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > hear >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group (5000 >> ?), >> > I >> > > > > would >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. But I >> also >> > > > > > understand >> > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from the last >> > > > century. >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to help >> adoption >> > > of >> > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > mailing >> > > > > > > > > >> list? >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list >> showing up >> > > on >> > > > > > Baidu >> > > > > > > > when >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, does it >> > > makes >> > > > > > sense >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > >> have >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in China? >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >
