Hi Kurt, I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1].
Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem. Best, Vino [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249 Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道： > Hi vino, > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with apache > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together. > You can try to leave comments in this jira: > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > > Best, > Kurt > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and caused > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*. > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of the QQ > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail server > does > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers were > from > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers to > the > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam system > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. Besides > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked. > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam strategy > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to > receive > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective interception > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the Apache > mail > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the bounce > > attack. > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache mail > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to > > facilitate the location problem. > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and > returned > > to the QQ mailbox. > > > > Best, > > Vino > > > > vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道： > > > >> Hi Robert, > >> > >> Yes, QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent. > >> > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I get > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here. > >> > >> Best, > >> Vino. > >> > >> Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道： > >> > >>> Thanks a lot! > >>> > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right? > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at Tencent > >>> (Vino > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this mailing > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve that > >>> problem? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, and all > >>> our > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend people use > >>> other > >>> > providers." > >>> > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when using > >>> > apache > >>> > mailing list. > >>> > > >>> > Best, > >>> > Kurt > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see what > >>> will > >>> > > happen. > >>> > > > >>> > > Best, > >>> > > Kurt > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger < > rmetz...@apache.org> > >>> > > wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this! > >>> > >> > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey! > >>> > >> > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see a > >>> similar > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com: > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team to > find > >>> out > >>> > >> why > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > Best, > >>> > >> > Kurt > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng < > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com> > >>> > >> wrote: > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon, > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot of > >>> people > >>> > >> told me > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list normally. I > >>> think > >>> > >> your > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer! > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@ > >>> > `. > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to > subscribe > >>> > using > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also emphasize > >>> more > >>> > >> about > >>> > >> > it > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to the > >>> users if > >>> > >> they > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`? > >>> > >> This > >>> > >> > > may > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing list. > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem. > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just now, > I > >>> told > >>> > >> one > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows > >>> everything > >>> > >> becomes > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only thing we > >>> can > >>> > do > >>> > >> is > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them to use > >>> Gmail > >>> > >> in > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday this > >>> week. > >>> > I > >>> > >> > want > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey. > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < > >>> > >> > tzuli...@apache.org> > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all, > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I receive > as > >>> a > >>> > >> > moderator > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be someone > >>> trying to > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ address, > >>> and > >>> > not > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better we can > >>> do in > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures in > >>> > >> subscribing > >>> > >> > to > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list. > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some email > >>> > >> domains, > >>> > >> > for > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being > blocked. > >>> This > >>> > >> > would > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the mailing > >>> list > >>> > >> since > >>> > >> > > they > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user email > >>> > >> > conversations > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either. > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > Best, > >>> > >> > > > Gordon > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >>> questions, but > >>> > >> > people > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind users to > >>> use > >>> > >> mailing > >>> > >> > > > list > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to educate > >>> people > >>> > >> more > >>> > >> > on > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists? > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn said. > >>> Several > >>> > >> times, > >>> > >> > > when > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please use > >>> user-zh > >>> > >> ML. > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But could > you > >>> help > >>> > >> > answer > >>> > >> > > > the > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to answer the > >>> > >> question in > >>> > >> > > > group > >>> > >> > > > > again. > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk group > >>> is > >>> > >> growing > >>> > >> > > too > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number grows from > >>> 5,000 > >>> > >> to > >>> > >> > > > 10,000 > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months. > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't support > >>> > >> searching. > >>> > >> > We > >>> > >> > > > can > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > >>> searching > >>> > >> itself. > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is the > link: > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > >>> > >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for technology-related > >>> > >> > information? > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is still > Baidu > >>> for > >>> > >> most > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > >>> > >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some > experience > >>> on > >>> > >> this. > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way to > >>> have a > >>> > >> better > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do users > >>> need. > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best, > >>> > >> > > > > Jark > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng < > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com > >>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi, > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank Bowen and > >>> Jark > >>> > >> for > >>> > >> > > your > >>> > >> > > > > nice > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts. > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I think the > >>> reason > >>> > >> is > >>> > >> > > that > >>> > >> > > > a > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. There > >>> are a > >>> > >> lot of > >>> > >> > > > > people > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the DingTalk > group. > >>> > Even > >>> > >> > > though, > >>> > >> > > > > for > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be solved > >>> in > >>> > the > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost in the > >>> group. > >>> > >> For > >>> > >> > > > these > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are becoming > >>> > >> ruined. In > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen and > >>> Jark, I > >>> > >> > think > >>> > >> > > we > >>> > >> > > > > can > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from > users, > >>> such > >>> > >> as: > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it is > more > >>> > >> > convenient > >>> > >> > > > and > >>> > >> > > > > > fast. > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user mailing > list. > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user mailing > list. > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese user > >>> mailing > >>> > list > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the chinese user > >>> > mailing > >>> > >> > list > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li < > >>> > bowenl...@gmail.com> > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China > >>> operation > >>> > >> team > >>> > >> > has > >>> > >> > > > > done > >>> > >> > > > > > a > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This > >>> discussion > >>> > is > >>> > >> not > >>> > >> > > > about > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more of a > >>> high > >>> > >> growth > >>> > >> > > pain > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >>> questions, > >>> > >> but > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to > remind > >>> > users > >>> > >> to > >>> > >> > > use > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to > educate > >>> > people > >>> > >> > more > >>> > >> > > > on > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists? > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy and fast > >>> with > >>> > >> lower > >>> > >> > > > cost > >>> > >> > > > > > than > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, it'll > >>> be the > >>> > >> case > >>> > >> > > > too. > >>> > >> > > > > > The > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes down > >>> with it > >>> > >> > > though. > >>> > >> > > > > > When I > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% questions > were > >>> > >> > typically a > >>> > >> > > > log > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this before?". > >>> Many > >>> > of > >>> > >> > them > >>> > >> > > > > never > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. Situations > >>> may > >>> > >> have > >>> > >> > > > changed > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community grow > AND > >>> > follow > >>> > >> > good > >>> > >> > > > > > apache > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices. > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means "include > >>> and > >>> > with > >>> > >> > > Flink > >>> > >> > > > > > China > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team". > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original question > on > >>> > >> > user-zh's > >>> > >> > > > low > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China > >>> operation > >>> > >> team > >>> > >> > as > >>> > >> > > > part > >>> > >> > > > > > of > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well enough > >>> on > >>> > >> ideas > >>> > >> > and > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people voted > >>> +1 are > >>> > >> all > >>> > >> > > > > **devs** > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's gonna > >>> be the > >>> > >> main > >>> > >> > > > > > question > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our operation > >>> team** > >>> > >> > voted > >>> > >> > > or > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated to the > >>> them > >>> > the > >>> > >> > > > purpose > >>> > >> > > > > of > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, that's > >>> > something > >>> > >> we > >>> > >> > > can > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take Flink > China > >>> > >> > operation > >>> > >> > > > team > >>> > >> > > > > > as > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and encouraging > >>> them to > >>> > >> join > >>> > >> > > > > related > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing list from > >>> now > >>> > on. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > >>> > >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations regarding a > chat > >>> > group > >>> > >> > with > >>> > >> > > > 10k > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members! > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene in the > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking > >>> > >> > > > > > > world > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the community > >>> grow > >>> > AND > >>> > >> > > follow > >>> > >> > > > > > good > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are doing > user > >>> > >> support > >>> > >> > via > >>> > >> > > > > Chat > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to move > >>> people > >>> > >> away > >>> > >> > > > from > >>> > >> > > > > > > that, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down adoption of > >>> Flink > >>> > >> in > >>> > >> > > > China. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay with > using > >>> > >> mailing > >>> > >> > > > lists, > >>> > >> > > > > > or > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >>> > questions, > >>> > >> but > >>> > >> > > > > people > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use > mailing > >>> > list > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing lists? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't > support > >>> > >> > searching. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh > >>> which > >>> > >> > > supports > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not > showing > >>> up > >>> > on > >>> > >> > > Baidu. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve > >>> this. > >>> > >> IMO, > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > >>> > >> > > > > is > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > >>> information. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for > >>> technology-related > >>> > >> > > > information? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in China > >>> finding > >>> > help > >>> > >> > when > >>> > >> > > > > they > >>> > >> > > > > > > run > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu < > >>> imj...@gmail.com > >>> > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in the > >>> > DingTalk. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > >>> > >> questions, > >>> > >> > but > >>> > >> > > > > > people > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use > mailing > >>> > list > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have replies, > >>> > >> although > >>> > >> > in > >>> > >> > > > > hours. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved by > >>> using > >>> > >> mailing > >>> > >> > > > list. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't > >>> support > >>> > >> > > searching. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for user-zh > >>> which > >>> > >> > > supports > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not > >>> showing up > >>> > >> on > >>> > >> > > > Baidu. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to improve > >>> this. > >>> > >> IMO, > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > >>> > >> > > > > is > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > >>> information. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > >>> > > >>> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < > >>> > >> bowenl...@gmail.com> > >>> > >> > > > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's > because > >>> > most > >>> > >> > > > questions > >>> > >> > > > > > are > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has close to > >>> 10,000 > >>> > >> > people > >>> > >> > > > now. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, announce news > >>> and > >>> > >> > updates, > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE for > >>> > ask-answer > >>> > >> > > > > questions > >>> > >> > > > > > > and > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely not > >>> > 10,000...) > >>> > >> We > >>> > >> > > > > probably > >>> > >> > > > > > > all > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not really > >>> > >> searchable, > >>> > >> > > > topics > >>> > >> > > > > > lost > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions without > >>> evening > >>> > >> doing > >>> > >> > > any > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that group > >>> chat > >>> > and > >>> > >> > > haven't > >>> > >> > > > > > > really > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the heat in > >>> the > >>> > >> group > >>> > >> > is > >>> > >> > > > > also > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it still > >>> exists > >>> > >> > > nowadays > >>> > >> > > > > for > >>> > >> > > > > > > its > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async communication, > >>> topic > >>> > >> > focused, > >>> > >> > > > > etc. > >>> > >> > > > > > > And > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and ask-answer > >>> > should > >>> > >> > > happen > >>> > >> > > > in > >>> > >> > > > > > the > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't clarified > >>> what > >>> > >> that > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it should > work > >>> > >> together > >>> > >> > > with > >>> > >> > > > > our > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat and > kind > >>> of > >>> > >> just > >>> > >> > let > >>> > >> > > > it > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to > >>> reflect on > >>> > >> how > >>> > >> > we > >>> > >> > > > > should > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group chat > >>> should > >>> > >> only be > >>> > >> > > > used > >>> > >> > > > > > for > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and > >>> updates, > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting > >>> > >> > > > > > live > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical > discussions > >>> > >> should > >>> > >> > be > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of the > >>> DingTalk > >>> > >> group > >>> > >> > so > >>> > >> > > > > that > >>> > >> > > > > > > they > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert Metzger < > >>> > >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a few > >>> months old > >>> > >> and > >>> > >> > I > >>> > >> > > > > wanted > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk group > >>> (5000 > >>> > >> ?), > >>> > >> > I > >>> > >> > > > > would > >>> > >> > > > > > > have > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing list. > >>> But I > >>> > >> also > >>> > >> > > > > > understand > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology from > the > >>> > last > >>> > >> > > > century. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per month: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side to > help > >>> > >> adoption > >>> > >> > > of > >>> > >> > > > > that > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the mailing list > >>> > >> showing up > >>> > >> > > on > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? If not, > >>> does > >>> > it > >>> > >> > > makes > >>> > >> > > > > > sense > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain in > >>> China? > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao Chan < > >>> > >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > >> >
