Hi vino, Thanks a lot for unblocking the email address. I have told the user about this. Hope things can get better.
Best, Hequn On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 3:14 PM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Hequn, > > Thanks for reporting this case. > > The reason replied by QQ mail team is also caused by *bounce attack*. So > this mail address has been intercepted and it's an IP level interception. > > Today, the QQ mail team has unblocked this email address. So it can receive > the follow-up email from Apache mail server normally. > > If this email address still can not work normally in the future. Please > report it here again. > > Best, > Vino > > > Hequn Cheng <chenghe...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午2:39写道： > > > Hi Vino, > > > > Great thanks for your help. > > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache > mail > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ mailbox to > > facilitate the location problem. > > > > I just got one feedback. > > A user(173855...@qq.com) report that he can't receive the emails from > the > > Chinese-speaking mailing list. He had subscripted successfully on > > 2019-05-10. Everything goes well until 2019-05-10 and no more emails come > > again from the mailing list. > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 12:56 PM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Hi Kurt, > > > > > > I have copied my reply to the Jira issue of INFRA[1]. > > > > > > Within my ability, I am happy to coordinate and promote this problem. > > > > > > Best, > > > Vino > > > > > > [1]: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249 > > > > > > Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 下午12:11写道： > > > > > > > Hi vino, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your effort. Could you also share this information with > > apache > > > > INFRA? Maybe we can find a workable solution together. > > > > You can try to leave comments in this jira: > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Kurt > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > The main reason is that the *Apache mail server has been used and > > > caused > > > > > a bounce attack on the QQ mailbox*. > > > > > > > > > > Detailed description: The third parties forged the domain name of > the > > > QQ > > > > > mailbox to send spam to the Apache mail server. The Apache mail > > server > > > > does > > > > > not make a correct check and mistakenly thought that the spammers > > were > > > > from > > > > > QQ mailbox instead of third parties, so that these spam emails were > > > > > returned back to the QQ mail server, and a large number of bouncers > > to > > > > the > > > > > QQ mailbox server caused a bounce attack. Therefore, the anti-spam > > > system > > > > > of QQ mailbox automatically applies the interception strategy. > > Besides > > > > > bounce emails, some normal emails are also blocked. > > > > > > > > > > At present, QQ mailbox temporarily uses a more relaxed anti-spam > > > strategy > > > > > for the Apache mail server. However, if QQ mail server continues to > > > > receive > > > > > a large number of bounce emails, it will also take effective > > > interception > > > > > measures. In the history of QQ mailbox, not all emails from the > > Apache > > > > mail > > > > > server will be intercepted, most of the rejections are part of the > > > bounce > > > > > attack. > > > > > > > > > > So if someone reports that they can't receive the email from Apache > > > mail > > > > > server, they can provide more detailed information to the QQ > mailbox > > to > > > > > facilitate the location problem. > > > > > > > > > > The attached file contains a sample of spam that was rejected and > > > > returned > > > > > to the QQ mailbox. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Vino > > > > > > > > > > vino yang <yanghua1...@gmail.com> 于2019年6月21日周五 上午10:16写道： > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Robert, > > > > >> > > > > >> Yes, QQ mail product belongs to Tencent and I work at Tencent. > > > > >> > > > > >> I am contacting QQ mail team and trying to know the reason. Once I > > get > > > > >> the reply and explanation. I will sync here. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> Vino. > > > > >> > > > > >> Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> 于2019年6月20日周四 下午10:59写道： > > > > >> > > > > >>> Thanks a lot! > > > > >>> > > > > >>> qq.com belongs to Tencent, right? > > > > >>> As far as I know, we have some active contributors working at > > Tencent > > > > >>> (Vino > > > > >>> Yang). Maybe he or other employees from Tencent following this > > > mailing > > > > >>> list, could help to make a connection to the QQ teams to resolve > > that > > > > >>> problem? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:43 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > From INFRA's response: "Yes, they aggressively rate limit us, > and > > > all > > > > >>> our > > > > >>> > efforts to contact them have gone unanswered. We recommend > people > > > use > > > > >>> other > > > > >>> > providers." > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > I think the only way is tell user not to use qq.com mails when > > > using > > > > >>> > apache > > > > >>> > mailing list. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Best, > > > > >>> > Kurt > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:23 PM Kurt Young <ykt...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Thanks Robert, I left a comment in the JIRA you gave and see > > what > > > > >>> will > > > > >>> > > happen. > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Best, > > > > >>> > > Kurt > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:04 PM Robert Metzger < > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > >> Thank you all for working on this! > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> +1 on conducting a survey! > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> @Kurt: Yes, you can just file a JIRA ticket with INFRA (see > a > > > > >>> similar > > > > >>> > >> example, also mentioning qq.com: > > > > >>> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-18249) > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:23 AM Kurt Young < > ykt...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > Is there any chance that we can contact Apache infra team > to > > > > find > > > > >>> out > > > > >>> > >> why > > > > >>> > >> > apache mails are blocked by qq.com? > > > > >>> > >> > QQ mails are very popular in Chinese. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > Best, > > > > >>> > >> > Kurt > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 12:01 PM Hequn Cheng < > > > > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >> wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > Hi Gordon, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > Thanks a lot for providing the valuable information! > > > > >>> > >> > > As I carry out the survey about the mailing list, a lot > of > > > > >>> people > > > > >>> > >> told me > > > > >>> > >> > > that they just can't subscribe to the mailing list > > > normally. I > > > > >>> think > > > > >>> > >> your > > > > >>> > >> > > information gives a good answer! > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > - User subscribes `user-zh@ address` instead of > > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@ > > > > >>> > `. > > > > >>> > >> > > The guidance in the Dingtalk group does tell users to > > > > subscribe > > > > >>> > using > > > > >>> > >> > > `user-zh-subscribe@`. However, I think we can also > > > emphasize > > > > >>> more > > > > >>> > >> about > > > > >>> > >> > it > > > > >>> > >> > > not to subscribe using `user-zh@ address`. > > > > >>> > >> > > Furthermore, could we also add some meaningful reply to > > the > > > > >>> users if > > > > >>> > >> they > > > > >>> > >> > > send email to `user-zh@` without subscribing > > > > >>> `user-zh-subscribe@`? > > > > >>> > >> This > > > > >>> > >> > > may > > > > >>> > >> > > also be a problem for the non-Chinese speaking mailing > > list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > - Network problem. > > > > >>> > >> > > This is true that some network is blocked in China. Just > > > now, > > > > I > > > > >>> told > > > > >>> > >> one > > > > >>> > >> > > guy to switch from qq email to Gmail. The result shows > > > > >>> everything > > > > >>> > >> becomes > > > > >>> > >> > > normal. It seems we can do nothing about it. The only > > thing > > > we > > > > >>> can > > > > >>> > do > > > > >>> > >> is > > > > >>> > >> > > try to sync this information to our users and tell them > to > > > use > > > > >>> Gmail > > > > >>> > >> in > > > > >>> > >> > > preference to qq.com, etc. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > BTW, I will post the result of the survey here on Friday > > > this > > > > >>> week. > > > > >>> > I > > > > >>> > >> > want > > > > >>> > >> > > to let more people join in the survey. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > Best, Hequn > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 10:47 AM Tzu-Li (Gordon) Tai < > > > > >>> > >> > tzuli...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > Hi all, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > Just a few observations from the MODERATE emails I > > receive > > > > as > > > > >>> a > > > > >>> > >> > moderator > > > > >>> > >> > > > of the user-zh@ mailing list: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > - About at least once every day, there would be > someone > > > > >>> trying to > > > > >>> > >> > > > incorrectly subscribe to user-zh@ via the user-zh@ > > > address, > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > not > > > > >>> > >> > > > user-zh-subscribe@. Maybe there is something better > we > > > can > > > > >>> do in > > > > >>> > >> > > > instructing users of the DingTalk group the procedures > > in > > > > >>> > >> subscribing > > > > >>> > >> > to > > > > >>> > >> > > > the Apache mailing list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > - It seems like the email respond bot can't reach some > > > email > > > > >>> > >> domains, > > > > >>> > >> > for > > > > >>> > >> > > > example '@qq.com'. There may be more that are being > > > > blocked. > > > > >>> This > > > > >>> > >> > would > > > > >>> > >> > > > block some users from correctly subscribing to the > > mailing > > > > >>> list > > > > >>> > >> since > > > > >>> > >> > > they > > > > >>> > >> > > > can't complete the subscribe process. > > > > >>> > >> > > > I don't think they'll be able to receive normal user > > email > > > > >>> > >> > conversations > > > > >>> > >> > > > from the mailing list either. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > Best, > > > > >>> > >> > > > Gordon > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 11:39 AM Jark Wu < > > > imj...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to ask > > > > >>> questions, but > > > > >>> > >> > people > > > > >>> > >> > > > > still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to remind > users > > > to > > > > >>> use > > > > >>> > >> mailing > > > > >>> > >> > > > list > > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to > > educate > > > > >>> people > > > > >>> > >> more > > > > >>> > >> > on > > > > >>> > >> > > > > mailing lists? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Because it's easy and fast as Bowen and Hequn > said. > > > > >>> Several > > > > >>> > >> times, > > > > >>> > >> > > when > > > > >>> > >> > > > > someone asked questions in group, I told them please > > use > > > > >>> user-zh > > > > >>> > >> ML. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > But they said "OK, I will post it in user-zh. But > > could > > > > you > > > > >>> help > > > > >>> > >> > answer > > > > >>> > >> > > > the > > > > >>> > >> > > > > question first? I'm in a hurry." Then I had to > answer > > > the > > > > >>> > >> question in > > > > >>> > >> > > > group > > > > >>> > >> > > > > again. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Another reason is the number of people in Dingtalk > > > group > > > > >>> is > > > > >>> > >> growing > > > > >>> > >> > > too > > > > >>> > >> > > > > fast to educate everyone to use ML. The number > grows > > > from > > > > >>> 5,000 > > > > >>> > >> to > > > > >>> > >> > > > 10,000 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > in the past months. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't > > support > > > > >>> > >> searching. > > > > >>> > >> > We > > > > >>> > >> > > > can > > > > >>> > >> > > > > provide a nabble service for user-zh which supports > > > > >>> searching > > > > >>> > >> itself. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > - Sure, I have setup a nabble service and here is > the > > > > link: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > http://apache-flink.147419.n8.nabble.com/ > > > > >>> > >> > > > > It should work now and thank @Gordon for the help. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > What is the primary search engine for > > > technology-related > > > > >>> > >> > information? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > - I think the primary search engine in China is > still > > > > Baidu > > > > >>> for > > > > >>> > >> most > > > > >>> > >> > > > > technicians. So we still need a way to improve SEO. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Maybe the Flink China operation team have some > > > > experience > > > > >>> on > > > > >>> > >> this. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > A big +1 to Hequn's survey proposal. It's a good way > > to > > > > >>> have a > > > > >>> > >> better > > > > >>> > >> > > > > understanding about what's the root reason, what do > > > users > > > > >>> need. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Best, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Jark > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 at 18:11, Hequn Cheng < > > > > >>> chenghe...@gmail.com > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Hi, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Thank Robert for raising the discussion. Thank > Bowen > > > and > > > > >>> Jark > > > > >>> > >> for > > > > >>> > >> > > your > > > > >>> > >> > > > > nice > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > thoughts. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The DingTalk group grows bigger and bigger. I > think > > > the > > > > >>> reason > > > > >>> > >> is > > > > >>> > >> > > that > > > > >>> > >> > > > a > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lot of problems are solved quickly in the group. > > There > > > > >>> are a > > > > >>> > >> lot of > > > > >>> > >> > > > > people > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > who are willing to answer questions in the > DingTalk > > > > group. > > > > >>> > Even > > > > >>> > >> > > though, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > for > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > some complicated problems, they often not well be > > > solved > > > > >>> in > > > > >>> > the > > > > >>> > >> > > > DingTalk > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > group. These problems are often ignored and lost > in > > > the > > > > >>> group. > > > > >>> > >> For > > > > >>> > >> > > > these > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > problems, using the mailing list is a good choice. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > There may be many reasons why mailing lists are > > > becoming > > > > >>> > >> ruined. In > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > addition to some of the reasons mentioned by Bowen > > and > > > > >>> Jark, I > > > > >>> > >> > think > > > > >>> > >> > > we > > > > >>> > >> > > > > can > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > initiate a survey to see the actual feedbacks from > > > > users, > > > > >>> such > > > > >>> > >> as: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 1. The problems can be solved in the DingTalk, it > is > > > > more > > > > >>> > >> > convenient > > > > >>> > >> > > > and > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > fast. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 2. I don't even know there is a chinese user > mailing > > > > list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 3. I don't know how to use the chinese user > mailing > > > > list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 4. Problems are not be answered in the chinese > user > > > > >>> mailing > > > > >>> > list > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 5. Problems are not well be answered in the > chinese > > > user > > > > >>> > mailing > > > > >>> > >> > list > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 6. I prefer using the English user mailing list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > 7. other reasons. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > I will follow this survey and then update it here. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Best, Hequn > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 12:09 PM Bowen Li < > > > > >>> > bowenl...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I want to first clarify that I think Flink China > > > > >>> operation > > > > >>> > >> team > > > > >>> > >> > has > > > > >>> > >> > > > > done > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > a > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > PHENOMENAL job to grow user base in China! This > > > > >>> discussion > > > > >>> > is > > > > >>> > >> not > > > > >>> > >> > > > about > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discrediting anyone. The problem occurs as more > > of a > > > > >>> high > > > > >>> > >> growth > > > > >>> > >> > > pain > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > IMHO. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >> We did guide users to use mailing list to > ask > > > > >>> questions, > > > > >>> > >> but > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > people still prefer DingTalk. We can continue to > > > > remind > > > > >>> > users > > > > >>> > >> to > > > > >>> > >> > > use > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing list frequently. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? Do we need to > > > > educate > > > > >>> > people > > > > >>> > >> > more > > > > >>> > >> > > > on > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > mailing lists? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - They "prefer" it possibly because it's easy > and > > > fast > > > > >>> with > > > > >>> > >> lower > > > > >>> > >> > > > cost > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > than > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > emailing. If we have a worldwide Slack channel, > > > it'll > > > > >>> be the > > > > >>> > >> case > > > > >>> > >> > > > too. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > The > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > quality of communication and question also goes > > down > > > > >>> with it > > > > >>> > >> > > though. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > When I > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > last looked at it months ago, maybe 70+% > questions > > > > were > > > > >>> > >> > typically a > > > > >>> > >> > > > log > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > screenshot followed up "has anyone seen this > > > before?". > > > > >>> Many > > > > >>> > of > > > > >>> > >> > them > > > > >>> > >> > > > > never > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > got answered and just got buried by others. > > > Situations > > > > >>> may > > > > >>> > >> have > > > > >>> > >> > > > changed > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > now, I'm sure. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Ideally, we find a way to help the community > > grow > > > > AND > > > > >>> > follow > > > > >>> > >> > good > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > apache > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > practices. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > - Absolutely. I think, specially, "we" means > > > "include > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > with > > > > >>> > >> > > Flink > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > China > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > operation team". > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > I think maybe the root cause of the original > > > question > > > > on > > > > >>> > >> > user-zh's > > > > >>> > >> > > > low > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > activity is that, we failed counting Flink China > > > > >>> operation > > > > >>> > >> team > > > > >>> > >> > as > > > > >>> > >> > > > part > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > of > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > our community, and thus didn't get aligned well > > > enough > > > > >>> on > > > > >>> > >> ideas > > > > >>> > >> > and > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > execution. E.g. when voting for user-zh, people > > > voted > > > > >>> +1 are > > > > >>> > >> all > > > > >>> > >> > > > > **devs** > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > who possibly had default expectations that it's > > > gonna > > > > >>> be the > > > > >>> > >> main > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > question > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > channel. I didn't see **any people from our > > > operation > > > > >>> team** > > > > >>> > >> > voted > > > > >>> > >> > > or > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > expressed their opinions. Have we communicated > to > > > the > > > > >>> them > > > > >>> > the > > > > >>> > >> > > > purpose > > > > >>> > >> > > > > of > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > user-zh before or during the voting? If not, > > that's > > > > >>> > something > > > > >>> > >> we > > > > >>> > >> > > can > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > improve. I suggest we should officially take > Flink > > > > China > > > > >>> > >> > operation > > > > >>> > >> > > > team > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > as > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > part of Flink community by inviting and > > encouraging > > > > >>> them to > > > > >>> > >> join > > > > >>> > >> > > > > related > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > discussions and raise their voice in mailing > list > > > from > > > > >>> now > > > > >>> > on. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:48 AM Robert Metzger < > > > > >>> > >> > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Bowen, I agree with your observations > regarding > > a > > > > chat > > > > >>> > group > > > > >>> > >> > with > > > > >>> > >> > > > 10k > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > members! > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I'm not very familiar with how the tech scene > in > > > the > > > > >>> > >> > > > Chinese-speaking > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > world > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > works. Ideally, we find a way to help the > > > community > > > > >>> grow > > > > >>> > AND > > > > >>> > >> > > follow > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > good > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > apache practices. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > If most other projects and communities are > doing > > > > user > > > > >>> > >> support > > > > >>> > >> > via > > > > >>> > >> > > > > Chat > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > groups, then it would probably be difficult to > > > move > > > > >>> people > > > > >>> > >> away > > > > >>> > >> > > > from > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > that, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > or in the worst case, it would slow down > > adoption > > > of > > > > >>> Flink > > > > >>> > >> in > > > > >>> > >> > > > China. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do you think that people are generally okay > with > > > > using > > > > >>> > >> mailing > > > > >>> > >> > > > lists, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > or > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > will it hinder adoption? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to > ask > > > > >>> > questions, > > > > >>> > >> but > > > > >>> > >> > > > > people > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use > > > > mailing > > > > >>> > list > > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we know why that's the case? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Do we need to educate people more on mailing > > > lists? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh doesn't > > > > support > > > > >>> > >> > searching. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for > > > user-zh > > > > >>> which > > > > >>> > >> > > supports > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Great idea! Do you want to set it up? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are not > > > > showing > > > > >>> up > > > > >>> > on > > > > >>> > >> > > Baidu. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to > > > improve > > > > >>> this. > > > > >>> > >> IMO, > > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > > > > >>> > >> > > > > is > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > > > > >>> information. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > What is the primary search engine for > > > > >>> technology-related > > > > >>> > >> > > > information? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Or asking more broadly, how are people in > China > > > > >>> finding > > > > >>> > help > > > > >>> > >> > when > > > > >>> > >> > > > > they > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > run > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > into problems with a system? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Best, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Robert > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:49 AM Jark Wu < > > > > >>> imj...@gmail.com > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks Bowen and Robert, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Here're my observations and thoughts. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 1. Most questions and discussions happen in > > the > > > > >>> > DingTalk. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 2. We did guide users to use mailing list to > > ask > > > > >>> > >> questions, > > > > >>> > >> > but > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > people > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > still prefer DingTalk. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can continue to remind users to use > > > > mailing > > > > >>> > list > > > > >>> > >> > > > > frequently. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 3. All the questions in mailing list have > > > replies, > > > > >>> > >> although > > > > >>> > >> > in > > > > >>> > >> > > > > hours. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - It means users can get problems solved > > by > > > > >>> using > > > > >>> > >> mailing > > > > >>> > >> > > > list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 4. The apache archive [1] for user-zh > doesn't > > > > >>> support > > > > >>> > >> > > searching. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - We can provide a nabble service for > > > user-zh > > > > >>> which > > > > >>> > >> > > supports > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > searching > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > itself. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > 5. The messages from the mailing list are > not > > > > >>> showing up > > > > >>> > >> on > > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > - I don't have much experience how to > > > improve > > > > >>> this. > > > > >>> > >> IMO, > > > > >>> > >> > > > Baidu > > > > >>> > >> > > > > is > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > not > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > good at searching for technology-related > > > > >>> information. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > Jark > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > [1]. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/flink-user-zh/201906.mbox/browser > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 05:38, Bowen Li < > > > > >>> > >> bowenl...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I resonate with your concerns Robert. It's > > > > because > > > > >>> > most > > > > >>> > >> > > > questions > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > are > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > asked in the DingTalk group which has > close > > to > > > > >>> 10,000 > > > > >>> > >> > people > > > > >>> > >> > > > now. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Here're > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > my observations and thoughts. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Group chat is great for marketing, > announce > > > news > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > >> > updates, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > broadcast > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > live streams/events, and is just TERRIBLE > > for > > > > >>> > ask-answer > > > > >>> > >> > > > > questions > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > and > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > discussions (may be ok for 3-5 :) surely > not > > > > >>> > 10,000...) > > > > >>> > >> We > > > > >>> > >> > > > > probably > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > all > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > experienced the problems - content not > > really > > > > >>> > >> searchable, > > > > >>> > >> > > > topics > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > lost > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > fast, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > too much noise, people post questions > > without > > > > >>> evening > > > > >>> > >> doing > > > > >>> > >> > > any > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > homework > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > first, etc. I personally have muted that > > group > > > > >>> chat > > > > >>> > and > > > > >>> > >> > > haven't > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > really > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > look > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > at it for a long time, and I do feel the > > heat > > > in > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >> group > > > > >>> > >> > is > > > > >>> > >> > > > > also > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > going > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > down because of the problems. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Mailing list is indeed old school, but it > > > still > > > > >>> exists > > > > >>> > >> > > nowadays > > > > >>> > >> > > > > for > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > its > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > own reasons - searchable, async > > communication, > > > > >>> topic > > > > >>> > >> > focused, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > etc. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > And > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > I > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > believe all technical discussions and > > > ask-answer > > > > >>> > should > > > > >>> > >> > > happen > > > > >>> > >> > > > in > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > the > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list, not in that group. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > IMO, the root cause is that we haven't > > > clarified > > > > >>> what > > > > >>> > >> that > > > > >>> > >> > > > > DingTalk > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > group > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > should be really used for, and how it > should > > > > work > > > > >>> > >> together > > > > >>> > >> > > with > > > > >>> > >> > > > > our > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > user-zh > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > mailing list. We created that group chat > and > > > > kind > > > > >>> of > > > > >>> > >> just > > > > >>> > >> > let > > > > >>> > >> > > > it > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > drive > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > its own directions. This is a good time to > > > > >>> reflect on > > > > >>> > >> how > > > > >>> > >> > we > > > > >>> > >> > > > > should > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > position that group and mailing list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > As mentioned above, I believe the group > chat > > > > >>> should > > > > >>> > >> only be > > > > >>> > >> > > > used > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > for > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > marketing/interacting, announcing news and > > > > >>> updates, > > > > >>> > >> > > > broadcasting > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > live > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > streams/events, etc, and all technical > > > > discussions > > > > >>> > >> should > > > > >>> > >> > be > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > diverted > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > to > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > user-zh mailing list. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > I cc-ed a few organizers and drivers of > the > > > > >>> DingTalk > > > > >>> > >> group > > > > >>> > >> > so > > > > >>> > >> > > > > that > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > they > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > can share their thoughts. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > Bowen > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 2:19 AM Robert > > > Metzger < > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Hey all, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> the user...@flink.apache.org is now a > few > > > > >>> months old > > > > >>> > >> and > > > > >>> > >> > I > > > > >>> > >> > > > > wanted > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > hear > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> how things are going. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> From the number of people in the DingTalk > > > group > > > > >>> (5000 > > > > >>> > >> ?), > > > > >>> > >> > I > > > > >>> > >> > > > > would > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > have > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> expected more people to use the mailing > > list. > > > > >>> But I > > > > >>> > >> also > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > understand > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > that > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> mailing lists are an outdated technology > > from > > > > the > > > > >>> > last > > > > >>> > >> > > > century. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> These are the numbers of messages per > > month: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Feb: 72 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Mar: 170 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Apr: 119 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> May: 62 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Jun: 10 > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Is there anything we can do from our side > > to > > > > help > > > > >>> > >> adoption > > > > >>> > >> > > of > > > > >>> > >> > > > > that > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > mailing > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> list? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> For example: Are messages from the > mailing > > > list > > > > >>> > >> showing up > > > > >>> > >> > > on > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > Baidu > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > when > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> looking for common problems with Flink? > If > > > not, > > > > >>> does > > > > >>> > it > > > > >>> > >> > > makes > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > sense > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > to > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> have > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> a mailing list archive on a server/domain > > in > > > > >>> China? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Best, > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> Robert > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:42 AM YuZhao > > Chan > > > < > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > yuzhao....@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > That's great. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
