Re: IEP-54: Schema-first approach for 3.0

[Valentin Kulichenko]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for providing your feedback. Please see my comments below.

I would also encourage you to go through the IEP-54 [1] - it has a lot of
detail on the topic.

[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/IEP-54%3A+Schema-first+Approach

-Val

On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 11:22 PM Michael Cherkasov <
michael.cherka...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I reviewed the mail thread and proposal page and I still don't fully
> understand what is going to be changed, I would really appreciate it if you
> will answer a few questions:
>
> 1. Are you going to leave only one schema per cache? if so, will be there
> an option to have a table with arbitrary objects(pure KV case)?
>

My opinion is that KV case should be natively supported. I think this still
needs to be thought over, my current view on this is that we should have
separate APIs for KV and more generic storages. KV storage can be
implemented as a "table" with two BLOB fields where we will store
serialized key-value pairs. That would imply deserialization on read, but I
believe this is OK for KV use cases. I'm happy to hear other ideas though :)


> 2. What options will Apache Ignite 3.0 have to define schema? SchemaBuilder
> and SQL only? Is there an option to put the schema definition to the
> configuration?(I really don't like this, I would prefer to have
> separate scripts to create schemas)
>

There will be no such thing as a static configuration in the first place.
Tables and schemas are created in runtime. Even if there is a file provided
on node startup, this file is only applied in the scope of the 'start'
operation. All configurations will be stored in a meta storage available to
all nodes, as opposed to individual files.


> 3. Is there a way to change field type? if yes, can it be done in runtime?
>

Absolutely! IEP-54 has a whole section about schema evolution.


> 4. Looks like BinaryMarshaller is going to be re-worked too, is there any
> IEP for this?
>

BinaryMarshaller as a tool for arbitrary object serialization will be gone,
but we will reuse a lot of its concept to implement an internal tuple
serialization mechanism. IEP-54 has the description of the proposed data
format.


> 5. I don't like automatic schema evaluation when a new field is added
> automatically on record put, so is there a way to prohibit this behavior?
>  I think all schema changes should be done only explicitly except initial
> schema creation.
>

The way I see it is that we should have two modes: schema-first and
schema-last. Schema-first means exactly what you've described - schemas are
defined and updated explicitly by the user. In the schema-last mode,
the user does not deal with schemas, as they are inferred from the data
inserted into tables. We should definitely not mix these modes - it has to
be one or another. And it probably makes sense to discuss which mode should
be the default one.


>
> Thanks,
> Mike.
>
> пн, 21 дек. 2020 г. в 06:40, Andrey Mashenkov <andrey.mashen...@gmail.com
> >:
>
> > Hi, Igniters.
> >
> > We all know that the current QueryEntity API is not convenient and needs
> to
> > be reworked.
> > So, I'm glad to share PR [1] with schema configuration public API for
> > Ignite 3.0.
> >
> > New schema configuration uses Builder pattern, which looks more
> comfortable
> > to use.
> >
> > In the PR you will find a 'schema' package with the API itself, and a
> draft
> > implementation in 'internal' sub-package,
> > and a test that demonstrates how the API could be used.
> >
> > Please note:
> >
> > * Entrypoint is 'SchemaBuilders' class with static factory methods.
> > * The implementation is decoupled and can be easily extracted to separate
> > module if we decide to do so.
> > * Some columns types (e.g. Date/Time) are missed, they will be added
> lately
> > in separate tickes.
> > * Index configuration extends marker interface that makes possible to
> > implement indexes of new types in plugins.
> > Hopfully, we could add a persistent geo-indices support in future.
> > * Supposedly, current table schema can be changed via builder-like
> > structure as it is done if JOOQ project. See 'TableModificationBuilder'
> for
> > details.
> > I'm not sure 'SchemaTable' should have 'toBuilder()' converter for that
> > purpose as it is a Schema Manager responsibility to create mutator
> objects
> > from the current schema,
> > but implementing the Schema manager is out of scope and will be designed
> > within the next task.
> > * Interfaces implementations are out of scope. I did not intend to merge
> > them right now, but for test/demostration purposes.
> >
> > It is NOT the final version and some may be changed before the first
> > release of course.
> > For now, we have to agree if we can proceed with this approach or some
> > issues should be resolved at first.
> >
> > Any thoughts or objections?
> > Are interfaces good enough to be merged within the current ticket?
> >
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/IGNITE-13748
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 2:33 PM Юрий <jury.gerzhedow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > A little bit my thoughts about unsigned types:
> > >
> > > 1. Seems we may support unsign types
> > > 2. It requires adding new types to the internal representation,
> protocol,
> > > e.t.c.
> > > 3. internal representation should be the same as we keep sign types. So
> > it
> > > will not requires more memory
> > > 4. User should be aware of specifics such types for platforms which not
> > > support unsigned types. For example, a user could derive -6 value in
> Java
> > > for 250 unsigned byte value (from bits perspective will be right). I
> > think
> > > We shouldn't use more wide type for such cases, especially it will be
> bad
> > > for unsigned long when we require returns BigInteger type.
> > > 5. Possible it requires some suffix/preffix for new types like a
> '250u' -
> > > it means that 250 is an unsigned value type.
> > > 6. It requires a little bit more expensive comparison logic for indexes
> > > 7. It requires new comparison logic for expressions. I think it not
> > > possible for the current H2 engine and probably possible for the new
> > > Calcite engine. Need clarification from anybody who involved in this
> part
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > вт, 24 нояб. 2020 г. в 18:36, Alexey Goncharuk <
> > alexey.goncha...@gmail.com
> > > >:
> > >
> > > > Actually, we can support comparisons in 3.0: once we the actual type
> > > > information, we can make proper runtime adjustments and conversions
> to
> > > > treat those values as unsigned - it will be just a bit more
> expensive.
> > > >
> > > > вт, 24 нояб. 2020 г. в 18:32, Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupit...@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > > SQL range queries it will break
> > > > > > WHERE x > y may return wrong results
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, range queries, inequality comparisons and so on are broken
> > > > > for unsigned data types, I think I mentioned this somewhere above.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, in my opinion, we can document that SQL is not supported on
> > > those
> > > > > types,
> > > > > end of story.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 6:25 PM Alexey Goncharuk <
> > > > > alexey.goncha...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, I think this is a reasonable request. I thought about this
> > > when
> > > > I
> > > > > > was drafting the IEP, but hesitated to add these types right
> away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is how it works in Ignite since the beginning with .NET
> and
> > > C++
> > > > :)
> > > > > > I have some doubts that it actually works as expected, it needs
> > some
> > > > > > checking (will be glad if my concerns are false):
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    - It's true that equality check works properly, but for SQL
> > range
> > > > > >    queries it will break unless some special care is taken on
> Java
> > > > side:
> > > > > > for
> > > > > >    u8 255 > 10, but in Java (byte)255 will be converted to -1,
> > which
> > > > will
> > > > > >    break the comparison. Since we don't have unsigned types now,
> I
> > > > doubt
> > > > > it
> > > > > >    works.
> > > > > >    - There is an obvious cross-platform data loss when
> "intuitive"
> > > type
> > > > > >    mapping is used by a user (u8 corresponds to byte type in
> .NET,
> > > but
> > > > to
> > > > > >    avoid values loss, a user will have to use short type in Java,
> > and
> > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > >    will also need to take care of the range check during
> > > > serialization).
> > > > > I
> > > > > >    think we can even allow to try to deserialize a value into
> > > arbitrary
> > > > > > type,
> > > > > >    but throw an exception if the range is out of bounds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Overall, I agree with Andrey's comments.
> > > > > > Andrey, do you mind updating the IEP once all the details are
> > settled
> > > > > here?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > вт, 24 нояб. 2020 г. в 18:19, Andrey Mashenkov <
> > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pavel,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I believe uLong values beyond 2^63 can't be treated correctly
> for
> > > now
> > > > > > > (WHERE x > y may return wrong results)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think we could make "true" support for unsigned types, but
> they
> > > > will
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > limitations on the Java side.
> > > > > > > Thus, the one will not be able to map uint64 to Java long
> > > primitive,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > BigInteger only.
> > > > > > > As for indices, we could read uint64 to Java long, but treat
> > > negative
> > > > > > > values in a different way to preserve correct ordering.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > These limitations will affect only mixed environments when .Net
> > and
> > > > > Java
> > > > > > > used to access the data.
> > > > > > > Will this solution address your issues?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 5:45 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > ptupit...@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That way is impossible.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That is how it works in Ignite since the beginning with .NET
> > and
> > > > C++
> > > > > :)
> > > > > > > > You can use unsigned primitives as cache keys and values, as
> > > fields
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > properties,
> > > > > > > > and in SQL queries (even in WHERE x=y clauses) - it works
> > > > > transparently
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > the users.
> > > > > > > > Java side knows nothing and treats those values as
> > corresponding
> > > > > signed
> > > > > > > > types.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, this abstraction leaks in some cases only because
> > there
> > > > are
> > > > > no
> > > > > > > > corresponding type ids.
> > > > > > > > That is why I'm proposing a very simple change to the
> protocol
> > -
> > > > add
> > > > > > type
> > > > > > > > ids, but handle them the same way as signed counterparts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 5:00 PM Andrey Mashenkov <
> > > > > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Pavel,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Treat uLong as long in Java (bitwise representation is
> the
> > > > same)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That way is impossible.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Assume, you have a .NET class with a uByte field and map it
> > to
> > > > > > 'uint8'
> > > > > > > > > column.
> > > > > > > > > Then you set the field value to "250" and put the object
> > into a
> > > > > > table,
> > > > > > > > > field value perfectly fits to a single byte 'int8' column.
> > > > > > > > > But in Java you can't deserialize it to directly the Java
> > > object
> > > > > > field
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > 'byte' type, so we should map uint8 type to Java 'short'
> type
> > > > > > > > > because the one expected to see "250" as a value which
> > doesn't
> > > > fit
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > signed type.
> > > > > > > > > For uLong the one will need a BigInteger field in Java.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > SQL index either can't treat column value as Java 'byte' as
> > is,
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > after reading you will get a negative value, so it should
> be
> > > cast
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > short
> > > > > > > > > at first. (converted to BigInteger for uint64)
> > > > > > > > > So, index on signed type will require a different
> comparator.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That way doesn't look simpler.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 4:23 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > ptupit...@apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Andrey,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't think range narrowing is a good idea.
> > > > > > > > > > Do you see any problems with the simple approach I
> > described?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 4:01 PM Andrey Mashenkov <
> > > > > > > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Pavel,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you are ok with narrowing range for unsigned types
> > then
> > > we
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > > add a
> > > > > > > > > > > constraint for unsigned types on schema level (like
> > > > nullability
> > > > > > > flag)
> > > > > > > > > > > and treat them as signed types in storage.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We are going with a separate storage type-system and
> > binary
> > > > > > > protocol
> > > > > > > > > > > type-system, however most of type will match 1 to 1
> with
> > > > > storage
> > > > > > > > > (native)
> > > > > > > > > > > type.
> > > > > > > > > > > On .Net side you will either have a separate type id or
> > > treat
> > > > > > > > > serialized
> > > > > > > > > > > value regarding a schema (signed or unsigned flag).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Igor,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure users can ever foresee the consequences of
> > > using
> > > > > > > > unsigned
> > > > > > > > > > > types.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Assume, a user used to unsigned types perfectly works
> > with
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > > database,
> > > > > > > > > > > then he turns into Ignite successor confession with our
> > > > > "native"
> > > > > > > > > > > unsigned-types support.
> > > > > > > > > > > But later, he finds that he can use the power of Ignite
> > > > Compute
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > Java
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > some tasks or a new app.
> > > > > > > > > > > Finally, the user will either fail to use his unsigned
> > data
> > > > on
> > > > > > Java
> > > > > > > > due
> > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > face performance issues due to natural Java type system
> > > > > > limitations
> > > > > > > > > e.g.
> > > > > > > > > > > conversion uLong to BigInteger.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I believe that natively supported types with possible
> > value
> > > > > > ranges
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > limitations should be known.
> > > > > > > > > > > So, the only question is what trade-off we found
> > > acceptable:
> > > > > > > > narrowing
> > > > > > > > > > > unsigned type range or use types of wider range on
> > systems
> > > > like
> > > > > > > Java.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:25 PM Igor Sapego <
> > > > > isap...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I think it is not so hard to implement
> > > comparison
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > unsigned
> > > > > > > > > > > > numbers in
> > > > > > > > > > > > SQL even in Java, so it does not seem to be a big
> issue
> > > > from
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > > > perspective.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Now to the usage of unsigned types from Java - I
> think,
> > > if
> > > > a
> > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > uses
> > > > > > > > > > > > unsigned type
> > > > > > > > > > > > in a schema and is going to interact with it from
> Java
> > he
> > > > > knows
> > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > he
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > doing.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mostly they are for use from platforms where they
> have
> > > > native
> > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > widely
> > > > > > > > > > > > used, like in C++ or .NET, where users currently have
> > to
> > > > > make a
> > > > > > > > > manual
> > > > > > > > > > > type
> > > > > > > > > > > > casting
> > > > > > > > > > > > or even just stop using unsigned types when they use
> > > > Ignite.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Igor
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:06 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > > > > ptupit...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrey,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is much simpler:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Add protocol support for those types (basically,
> > just
> > > > add
> > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > type
> > > > > > > > > > > > ids)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Treat uLong as long in Java (bitwise
> representation
> > > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > same)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ANSI SQL does not have unsigned integers, so we can
> > > > simply
> > > > > > say
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unsigned value relative comparison is not supported
> > in
> > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > (equality
> > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > work).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:40 PM Andrey Mashenkov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Pavel and Igor.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like your ideas to have i8 or int8 instead of
> > > > Integer.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the naming doesn't address the issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree internal types should be portable across
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > without unsigned type support.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only issue here is that unsigned types cover
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > ranges.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume we want to introduce a uLong.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't look like a big deal to add uLong type
> > > > support
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > > storage
> > > > > > > > > > > > > level
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and fit it to a 8 bytes and then use it in e.g.
> > .Net
> > > > > only.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But how we could support it in e.g. Java?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's keep in mind Long range is about (2^-63 ..
> > > 2^63)
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > uLong
> > > > > > > > > > > range
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > (0 .. 2^64)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The first option is to restrict range to (0 ..
> > > > 2^63).
> > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > signed in e.g.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Java with no conversion, but doesn't look like a
> > > 'real'
> > > > > > > > unsigned
> > > > > > > > > > > uLong
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > support. Things go worse when the user will use
> > > uByte,
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > limitation
> > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > make uByte totally unusable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. The second one is to map unsigned types to a
> > type
> > > of
> > > > > > wider
> > > > > > > > > type
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a constraint for negative values. E.g. uLong to
> > > > > BigInteger.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, we can't use primitive Java type for Long
> here.
> > > > > > However,
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > possible to store uLong in 8 bytes, but have a
> > > special
> > > > > > > > comparator
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > unsigned types to avoid unwanted deserialization.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:04 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > > > > > > > > > ptupit...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree, let's get rid of "long, short, byte" in
> > the
> > > > > > protocol
> > > > > > > > > > > > definition.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can use Rust style, which is concise and
> > > > > unambiguous:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i8, u8, i16, u16, etc
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 1:58 PM Igor Sapego <
> > > > > > > > > isap...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pavel,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I totally support that. Also, if we are
> aiming
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stronger platform-independance,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in our schemas we may want to support
> > > bit-notation
> > > > > > > (int32,
> > > > > > > > > > > uint64)?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > example
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "long" can mean a different type on different
> > > > > platforms
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > confuse
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them (happens often when using ODBC for
> > example).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 1:34 PM Pavel
> Tupitsyn
> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > ptupit...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should support unsigned data
> > types:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > uByte, uShort, uInt, uLong
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Java does not have them, but many other
> > > languages
> > > > > do,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and with the growing number of thin clients
> > > this
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > important.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, in current Ignite.NET
> > > implementation
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > store
> > > > > > > > > > > > unsigned
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > values
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as signed internally,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but this is a huge pain when it comes to
> > > > metadata,
> > > > > > > binary
> > > > > > > > > > > > objects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (it is easy to deserialize int as uint when
> > you
> > > > > have
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > class,
> > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BinaryObject.GetField)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any objections?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 12:28 PM Andrey
> > > > Mashenkov <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good point. Both serializers use
> reflection
> > > > API.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, we will allow users to configure
> > > > static
> > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > along
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'strict'
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema mode, we still need to validate
> user
> > > > > classes
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > client
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nodes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > against
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the latest schema in the grid  and
> > reflection
> > > > API
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can find a few articles on the
> internet
> > > on
> > > > > how
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > enable
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reflection
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GraalVM.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll create a task for supporting
> GraalVM,
> > > and
> > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > > someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > familiar with GraalVM will suggest a
> > solution
> > > > or
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > proper
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > workaround.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll do it a bit later.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If no workaround is found, we could allow
> > > users
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > write
> > > > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > > > own
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > serializer, but I don't think it is a
> good
> > > idea
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > expose
> > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > internal
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > classes to the public.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:55 AM Denis
> > Magda <
> > > > > > > > > > > dma...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrey, thanks for the update,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does any of the serializers take into
> > > > > > consideration
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > native-image-generation feature of
> > GraalVM?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With the current binary marshaller, we
> > > can't
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > generate
> > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > native
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > image
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for the code using our thin client
> APIs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 4:39 AM Andrey
> > > > > Mashenkov
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > andrey.mashen...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to continue discussion of
> > IEP-54
> > > > > > > > > (Schema-first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope everyone who is interested had a
> > > > chance
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > > familiar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proposal [1].
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, do not hesitate to ask
> > questions
> > > > and
> > > > > > > share
> > > > > > > > > your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ideas.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've prepared a prototype of
> serializer
> > > [2]
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > data
> > > > > > > > > > > > > layout
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > described
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the proposal.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In prototy, I compared 2 approaches
> to
> > > > > > > > (de)serialize
> > > > > > > > > > > > objects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > uses java reflection/unsafe API and
> > > similar
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the second one generates
> serializer
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > class
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > uses
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Janino library for compilation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second one shows better results in
> > > > > benchmarks.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we can go with it as default
> > > > > serializer
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reflection-based
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementation as a fallback if
> someone
> > > > will
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of tasks under the
> > > > > umbrella
> > > > > > > > ticket
> > > > > > > > > > [3]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > waiting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > assignee.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, I'm going to create more tickets
> > for
> > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > manager
> > > > > > > > > > > > > modes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > implementation, but would like to
> > clarify
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > details.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought schemaManager on each node
> > > should
> > > > > > held:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   1. Local mapping of "schema
> version"
> > > <-->
> > > > > > > > validated
> > > > > > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > key/value
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > classes pair.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   2. Cluster-wide schema changes
> > history.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the client side. Before any
> > key-value
> > > > API
> > > > > > > > > operation
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > validate a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema for a given key-value pair.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is no local-mapping exists
> > for a
> > > > > given
> > > > > > > > > > key-value
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cluster wide schema has a more recent
> > > > version
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > key-value
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pair
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should be validated against the
> latest
> > > > > version
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > local
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mapping
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updated/actualized.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If an object doesn't fit to the
> latest
> > > > schema
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > depends
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mode: either fail the operation
> > ('strict'
> > > > > mode)
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mapping
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > created and a new schema version
> should
> > > be
> > > > > > > > propagated
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cluster.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the server side we usually have no
> > > > > key-value
> > > > > > > > > classes
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > operate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tuples.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As schema change history is available
> > > and a
> > > > > > tuple
> > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > version,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is possible to upgrade any
> received
> > > > tuple
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > last
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > desialization.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus we could allow nodes to send
> > > key-value
> > > > > > pairs
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > previous
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > versions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they didn't receive a schema update
> > yet)
> > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > reverting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > made by a node with newer classes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex, Val, Ivan did you mean the
> same?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/IEP-54%3A+Schema-first+Approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > https://github.com/apache/ignite/tree/ignite-13618/modules/commons
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [3]
> > > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/IGNITE-13616
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 9:21 AM Ivan
> > > > > Pavlukhin
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vololo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please do not ignore history. We
> had
> > a
> > > > > thread
> > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bright
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ideas. We can resume it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Applicability-of-term-cache-to-Apache-Ignite-td36541.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2020-09-10 0:08 GMT+03:00, Denis
> > Magda
> > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > dma...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Val, makes sense, thanks for
> > > > explaining.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree that we need to have a
> > separate
> > > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > > > > thread
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "table"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "cache" terms substitution. I'll
> > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thread
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sharing pointers to any relevant
> > IEPs
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > reasoning
> > > > > > > > > > > > > behind
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > change.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 6:01 PM
> > > Valentin
> > > > > > > > > Kulichenko
> > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > valentin.kuliche...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I guess the wording in the IEP
> is
> > a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > bit
> > > > > > > > > > > > > confusing.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> that you should not create
> nested
> > > > POJOs,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > > > > > > inline
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fields
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > into a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> single POJO that is mapped to a
> > > > > particular
> > > > > > > > > schema.
> > > > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nested
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> POJOs are not supported.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alex, is this correct? Please
> let
> > me
> > > > > know
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > missing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > something.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> As for the "cache" term, I agree
> > > that
> > > > it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > outdated,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> what we can replace it with.
> > "Table"
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > tightly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > associated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SQL,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> SQL is optional in our case. Do
> > you
> > > > want
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> about this?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -Val
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 4:37 PM
> > Denis
> > > > > > Magda <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dma...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Val,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> I've checked the IEP again and
> > > have a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > > > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Arbitrary nested objects and
> > > > > collections
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > allowed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > column
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> values.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Nested POJOs should either be
> > > > inlined
> > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > > schema,
> > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stored
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BLOBs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Could you provide a DDL code
> > > snippet
> > > > > > > showing
> > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inlining
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > POJOs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> supposed to work?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Also, we keep using the terms
> > > "cache"
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > "table"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > throughout
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IEP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the right time to discuss an
> > > > alternate
> > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > replace
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> too?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Personally, the "table" should
> > stay
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > "cache"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > go
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> considering
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that SQL is one of the primary
> > APIs
> > > > in
> > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > DDL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supported
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> out-of-the-box.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 12:26 PM
> > > > > Valentin
> > > > > > > > > > > Kulichenko <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> valentin.kuliche...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Ivan,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > I see your point. I agree
> that
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > automatic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > schema-last territory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Actually, if we support
> > automatic
> > > > > > > > evolution,
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > creating a cache without
> schema
> > > and
> > > > > > > > inferring
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > insert.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> In
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > other words, we can have both
> > > > > > > > "schema-first"
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "schema-last"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > modes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Alexey, what do you think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > -Val
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 5:59
> AM
> > > > Alexey
> > > > > > > > > > Goncharuk <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > alexey.goncha...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Ivan,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Thank you, I got your
> concern
> > > > now.
> > > > > As
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > mostly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regarding
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > terminology, I am
> absolutely
> > > fine
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > changing
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > name
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> fits
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > the approach best. Dynamic
> or
> > > > > > evolving
> > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > sounds
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > great. I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> make
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > corresponding changes to
> the
> > > IEP
> > > > > once
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > settle
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > name.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > пн, 7 сент. 2020 г. в
> 11:33,
> > > Ivan
> > > > > > > > > Pavlukhin <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vololo...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > Hi Val,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > Thank you for your
> answer!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > My understanding is a
> > little
> > > > bit
> > > > > > > > > different.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > evolution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > definitely should be
> > > possible.
> > > > > But
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > main
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > difference
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "how
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > schema is updated". I
> > treat a
> > > > > > common
> > > > > > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema-first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > and data manipulation
> > > > operations
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > clearly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > separated
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> enables
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > interesting capabilities,
> > > e.g.
> > > > > > > > preventing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > untended
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > mistaken data operations,
> > > > > > restricting
> > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > permissions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > schema.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Schema-first means that
> > > > schema
> > > > > > > exists
> > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> stored
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > data
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > is compliant with it -
> > that's
> > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proposed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > A schema-last approach
> > > > mentioned
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > assumes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > exists, but it is
> inferred
> > > from
> > > > > > data.
> > > > > > > > Is
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > proposing approach?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > And I would like to say,
> > that
> > > > my
> > > > > > main
> > > > > > > > > > concern
> > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mostly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > terminology. And I
> suppose
> > if
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > confuses
> > > > > > > > > > me
> > > > > > > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > confused as well. My
> > feeling
> > > is
> > > > > > > closer
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "dynamic
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > liquid
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > may
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > evolving schema".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://people.cs.umass.edu/~yanlei/courses/CS691LL-f06/papers/SH05.pdf
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > 2020-09-07 0:47
> GMT+03:00,
> > > > > Valentin
> > > > > > > > > > > Kulichenko
> > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > valentin.kuliche...@gmail.com
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > Hi Ivan,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > I don't see an issue
> with
> > > > that.
> > > > > > > > > > > Schema-first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> exists
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > advance and all the
> > stored
> > > > data
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > compliant
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> exactly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > is proposed. There are
> no
> > > > > > > > restrictions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > prohibiting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > schema.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > -Val
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at
> > 9:52
> > > > PM
> > > > > > Ivan
> > > > > > > > > > > > Pavlukhin <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> vololo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> Alexey,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> I am a little bit
> > confused
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > terminology.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > conforms
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> to a survey [1] (see
> > part
> > > X
> > > > > Semi
> > > > > > > > > > > Structured
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> really
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > treat
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> a "dynamic schema"
> > > approach
> > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > kind
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "schema-first"?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> [1]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> https://people.cs.umass.edu/~yanlei/courses/CS691LL-f06/papers/SH05.pdf
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> 2020-09-02 1:53
> > GMT+03:00,
> > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > Magda <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dma...@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> However, could you
> > > please
> > > > > > > > elaborate
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > relation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> ORM?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Is there a use case
> > for
> > > > > > > Hibernate
> > > > > > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > haven't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> seen
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> one so far)? If so,
> > > what
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > missing
> > > > > > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> side to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> this? In my
> > > > understanding,
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > API
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> have.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Am I missing
> > something?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Good point, yes, if
> > all
> > > > the
> > > > > > ORM
> > > > > > > > > > > > integrations
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> APIs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > internally, then
> they
> > > can
> > > > > > easily
> > > > > > > > > > > translate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Entity
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > object
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> into
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > INSERT/UPDATE
> > statement
> > > > that
> > > > > > > lists
> > > > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > object's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fields.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Luckily,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Spring Data
> > integration
> > > is
> > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > > based
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > APIs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > needs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > to be improved once
> > the
> > > > > > > > schema-first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supported.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> That
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > solve a ton of
> > usability
> > > > > > issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > I would revise the
> > > > Hibernate
> > > > > > > > > > integration
> > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > 3.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> dev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > phase. Can't say if
> > it's
> > > > > used
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Spring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > getting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > traction
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > sure.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > @Michael Pollind,
> I'll
> > > > loop
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > working
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Ignite support for
> > > > Micornaut
> > > > > > > Data
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > https://micronaut-projects.github.io/micronaut-data/latest/guide/>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > came across some
> > > > challenges.
> > > > > > > Just
> > > > > > > > > > watch
> > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > That's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > what
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > coming in Ignite
> 3.0.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020
> > at
> > > > 5:11
> > > > > > PM
> > > > > > > > > > Valentin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kulichenko
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > valentin.kuliche...@gmail.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Generally
> speaking, I
> > > > > believe
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schema-first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > natively
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> addresses the issue
> > if
> > > > > > > duplicate
> > > > > > > > > > fields
> > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > value
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> objects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> because
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> schema will be
> > created
> > > > for
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > > cache,
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > object,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > happens
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> now.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Basically, the
> schema
> > > > will
> > > > > > > define
> > > > > > > > > > > whether
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > primary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> key
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> not,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> and which fields
> are
> > > > > included
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > API
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> have must be
> > compliant
> > > > with
> > > > > > > this,
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > becomes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fairly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> data as with a set
> of
> > > > > > records,
> > > > > > > > > rather
> > > > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > key-value
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pairs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> However, could you
> > > please
> > > > > > > > elaborate
> > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > relation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> ORM?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Is there a use case
> > for
> > > > > > > Hibernate
> > > > > > > > > > > running
> > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > top
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > haven't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> seen
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> one so far)? If so,
> > > what
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > missing
> > > > > > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> side to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> this? In my
> > > > understanding,
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > need
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > SQL
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > API
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> have.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> Am I missing
> > something?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> -Val
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> On Mon, Aug 31,
> 2020
> > at
> > > > > 2:08
> > > > > > PM
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Magda <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> dma...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > Val,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > I would propose
> > > adding
> > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > motivations
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > list
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > related to the
> ORM
> > > > > > frameworks
> > > > > > > > > such
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Spring
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Data,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Hibernate,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> Micronaut
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > many others.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > Presently, the
> > > storage
> > > > > > engine
> > > > > > > > > > > requires
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distinguish
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > key
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > objects
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > value ones that
> > > > > complicate
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > usage
> > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> ORM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > frameworks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > (especially if a
> > key
> > > > > object
> > > > > > > > > > comprises
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > several
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fields).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > More
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > found here:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/DISCUSSION-Key-and-Value-fields-with-same-name-and-SQL-DML-td47557.html
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > It will be nice
> if
> > > the
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > > > > schema-first
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > single entity
> > object
> > > > when
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > comes
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ORMs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> need to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > split
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > entity into a key
> > and
> > > > > > value.
> > > > > > > > Just
> > > > > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > 3.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > has
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > all the essential
> > > > public
> > > > > > APIs
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > single-entity
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > based
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > approach.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > What do you
> think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > On Fri, Aug 28,
> > 2020
> > > at
> > > > > > 3:50
> > > > > > > PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > Valentin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kulichenko <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > valentin.kuliche...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > One of the big
> > > > changes
> > > > > > > > proposed
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > so-called
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > "schema-first
> > > > > approach".
> > > > > > To
> > > > > > > > add
> > > > > > > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clarity,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > started
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > writing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > IEP
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > for this
> change:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/IGNITE/IEP-54%3A+Schema-first+Approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > Please take a
> > look
> > > > and
> > > > > > let
> > > > > > > me
> > > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> immediate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > thoughts,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > suggestions, or
> > > > > > objections.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > > -Val
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >> Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Живи с улыбкой! :D
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Andrey V. Mashenkov
> >
>