Alex, In the case of Oracle, we were including a dependency to the driver in the pom.xml file (as test, but a dependency in any case, so it might end up in the distributable and it was used by our software directly if the test was run). In the case of RedPanda, there is not any dependency in the pom.xml file, but a docker container using redpanda is run if you execute some IT. But in the client side (our software) there is not any forbidden dependency (as it happened with the oracle jdbc driver) and RedPanda is not really used (what is used is the kafka client software, which is valid) I'm not sure if you realize that If we follow your rationale, we would not be not able to invoke any REST server that contains software with an invalid license using our REST client.
On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:55 PM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> wrote: > Gonzalo, > > I understand that, and there was a similar discussion with Oracle JDBC > driver dependency. > > The IPMC seems to have a different interpretation from Camel PMC. But as > Apache KIE is under Incubation, we have to cope with IPMC interpretation. > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 6:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > > > The controversy pertains to the interpretation of "include" in the Apache > > requirements regarding Category X software. It is important to clarify > that > > we are not including any software from Redpanda; it is only downloaded if > > the user explicitly chooses to run those specific tests. > > > > It is worth noting that Apache Camel follows a similar approach [1]. In > > fact, Redpanda is their default option, though they also support Strimzi. > > [1] > > > > > https://github.com/apache/camel/blob/3c0dbfafab8c61a753dc013ca0a49a9ecf3e7217/test-infra/camel-test-infra-kafka/src/test/resources/org/apache/camel/test/infra/kafka/services/container.properties#L18 > > > > El lun, 16 dic 2024 a las 12:01, Alex Porcelli (<[email protected]>) > > escribió: > > > > > Toshiya, > > > > > > What I mean by temporary is that it’s not a longer term solution, it > can > > be > > > effective for a few releases (similar to what we had for 10.0.0), but > we > > > shouldn’t consider it a permanent solution. > > > > > > Francisco, > > > > > > The issue is on dependency, not comments… as of now there’s a > dependency > > > with a Categoxy X software and IPMC made clear its position. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 5:36 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Also, its not even clear to me if we are even referencing RedPanda > > > beyond a > > > > string in the setup of the IT code. > > > > I do not think that the rule forbids mentioning "Oracle" and > "RedPanda" > > > in > > > > the source code (that will be as absurd as not being able to have a > > > comment > > > > mentioning red pandas). What the rule forbids is including, in our > > > > distribution, that software (which we are not doing) > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 7:13 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary > solution, > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. > > > > > > > > > > Does "temporary" mean "until graduating incubator"? > > > > > > > > > > If yes, then removing the test code from source release wouldn't > > bring > > > > much > > > > > value, because "Has Category X dependencies" is a Minor Issue which > > > also > > > > > gives us time until graduation ( > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469), so our option > > seems > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > only one which Ricardo suggested. > > > > > > > > > > Toshiya > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 5:02 AM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary > solution, > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. > > > > > > > > > > > > IPMC has been clear about legal implications in a similar case we > > had > > > > > > with the Oracle JDBC driver. The mentioned license is CategoryX > and > > > > > > can't be referenced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, different TLP might have different interpretations, but IPMC > > has > > > > > > been clear about theirs for us (again, using the Oracle JDBC as > the > > > > > > reference). > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 11:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding more context to this, Quarkus Kafka Dev services uses > > > Redpanda > > > > > as > > > > > > default option (they also have Strimzi and native Kafka, but have > > to > > > be > > > > > > opted-in). > > > > > > > The rationale is "Because starting a Kafka broker can be long, > > Dev > > > > > > Services for Kafka uses Redpanda, a Kafka compatible broker which > > > > starts > > > > > in > > > > > > ~1 second." [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for example, in kogito-apps, there was no reference to > > > Redpanda, > > > > > > just the use of Quarkus Kafka Dev Services which delegates as > > default > > > > to > > > > > > Redpanda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://quarkus.io/guides/kafka-dev-services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El vie, 13 dic 2024 a las 17:31, ricardo zanini fernandes (< > > > > > > [email protected]>) escribió: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Folks, replacing Redpanda with Apache Kafka will deteriorate > our > > > > test > > > > > > cases > > > > > > >> since the first is a lightweight version of the Kafka > > > implementation > > > > > [1] > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Our tests are already a pain to run, consuming too many > > resources > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> infrastructure. Can't we just NOT distribute the IT sources? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Alternatively, we can remove docker containers and have a > Kafka > > > Mock > > > > > [2] > > > > > > >> re-engineering our test architecture slightly and use > > Apache/Kafka > > > > > ONLY > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> very specific cases (if any). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Let me know what you think, and I will open a vote thread. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> [1] > > > > > > > > https://www.redpanda.com/guides/kafka-alternatives-kafka-limitations > > > > > > >> [2] https://www.baeldung.com/kafka-mockproducer > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:37 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti > < > > > > > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > I vote for B), that way we remove the IT test, if any, from > > the > > > > > source > > > > > > >> > distribution, which I think is good anyway. because we if w > > only > > > > > > distribute > > > > > > >> > the actual running code and its sources, we are reducing the > > > size > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> > distributable (and in SW, the smaller, if working, the > better) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 7:16 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Thank you, Andrea. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > As Alex suggested, we would: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > A) Replace redpanda with another container which is under > an > > > > > > acceptable > > > > > > >> > > license (e.g. apache/kafka) > > > > > > >> > > or > > > > > > >> > > B) Exclude the relevant test cases from the source > > > distribution > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > It will be tracked by > > > > > > >> > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Thanks! > > > > > > >> > > Toshiya > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 7:37 PM Alex Porcelli < > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Based on some inputs we got from IPMC when discussing > > Oracle > > > > > JDBC > > > > > > >> > > > dependency, the test dependencies on CategoryX are also > > not > > > > > > allowed. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The workaround could be that the source is not released > > and > > > > the > > > > > > >> > binaries > > > > > > >> > > > aren’t directly dependent on those. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:28 AM Andrea Cosentino < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> In the past they were excluded. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> At some point the license changed and it was no more in > > the > > > > > > category > > > > > > >> > X. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> I don't remember the dependency anyway. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> Il giorno gio 12 dic 2024 alle ore 11:12 Toshiya > > Kobayashi > > > < > > > > > > >> > > >> [email protected]> ha scritto: > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thank you for the reply, Andrea. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > If the dependency is used just for testing and it's > > not > > > > > part > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > >> > > >> > release, there are no impediments in using it. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > We were doing something similar in Apache Camel too > > for > > > > > some > > > > > > >> > > >> > dependencies with license non-compliant with ASF > rules. > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Are those dependencies excluded from the source zip > of > > > the > > > > > > Apache > > > > > > >> > > Camel > > > > > > >> > > >> > release? > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thanks, > > > > > > >> > > >> > Toshiya > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 5:35 PM Andrea Cosentino < > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Hello Toshiya, > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> >> If the dependency is used just for testing and it's > > not > > > > part > > > > > > of the > > > > > > >> > > >> >> release, there are no impediments in using it. > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> >> We were doing something similar in Apache Camel too > > for > > > > some > > > > > > >> > > >> dependencies > > > > > > >> > > >> >> with license non-compliant with ASF rules. > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Cheers. > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Il giorno mer 11 dic 2024 alle ore 09:30 Toshiya > > > > Kobayashi < > > > > > > >> > > >> >> [email protected]> ha scritto: > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Hello, > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Currently we have GHA test failures with "pull > access > > > > > denied > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> vectorized/redpanda" in kogito repos. > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> I filed a GH issue. > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Also I have filed a PR to replace > > > > > > "vectorized/redpanda:v21.11.8" > > > > > > >> > > with > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "redpandadata/redpanda:v24.3.1". > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes/pull/3812 > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> and now I'm waiting for CI. > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Here I want to raise a point. redpanda is under > > > Business > > > > > > Source > > > > > > >> > > >> License > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> 1.1. > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > https://github.com/redpanda-data/redpanda/blob/dev/licenses/bsl.md > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> , which is Category X ( > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x > > > ). > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> A question to our mentors; Claus, Andrea and Brian: > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> redpanda is used for test infrastructure. Is it > > > > considered > > > > > as > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "dependency"? > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> If yes, using redpanda is considered as "Has > > Category X > > > > > > >> > > dependencies" > > > > > > >> > > >> in > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469 ? > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Regards, > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Toshiya > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
