Francisco and Gonzalo, I recommend you open a LEGAL ticket in Apache JIRA and send an email to IPMC to confirm your perspectives.
I have no personal preference, as long as IPMC agree with it. Alex On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 7:05 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > Alex, > In the case of Oracle, we were including a dependency to the driver in the > pom.xml file (as test, but a dependency in any case, so it might end up in > the distributable and it was used by our software directly if the test was > run). > In the case of RedPanda, there is not any dependency in the pom.xml file, > but a docker container using redpanda is run if you execute some IT. But in > the client side (our software) there is not any forbidden dependency (as it > happened with the oracle jdbc driver) and RedPanda is not really used (what > is used is the kafka client software, which is valid) > I'm not sure if you realize that If we follow your rationale, we would not > be not able to invoke any REST server that contains software with an > invalid license using our REST client. > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 12:55 PM Alex Porcelli <a...@porcelli.me> wrote: > > > Gonzalo, > > > > I understand that, and there was a similar discussion with Oracle JDBC > > driver dependency. > > > > The IPMC seems to have a different interpretation from Camel PMC. But as > > Apache KIE is under Incubation, we have to cope with IPMC interpretation. > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 6:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz <gonzalo51...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > The controversy pertains to the interpretation of "include" in the > Apache > > > requirements regarding Category X software. It is important to clarify > > that > > > we are not including any software from Redpanda; it is only downloaded > if > > > the user explicitly chooses to run those specific tests. > > > > > > It is worth noting that Apache Camel follows a similar approach [1]. In > > > fact, Redpanda is their default option, though they also support > Strimzi. > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/camel/blob/3c0dbfafab8c61a753dc013ca0a49a9ecf3e7217/test-infra/camel-test-infra-kafka/src/test/resources/org/apache/camel/test/infra/kafka/services/container.properties#L18 > > > > > > El lun, 16 dic 2024 a las 12:01, Alex Porcelli (<a...@porcelli.me>) > > > escribió: > > > > > > > Toshiya, > > > > > > > > What I mean by temporary is that it’s not a longer term solution, it > > can > > > be > > > > effective for a few releases (similar to what we had for 10.0.0), but > > we > > > > shouldn’t consider it a permanent solution. > > > > > > > > Francisco, > > > > > > > > The issue is on dependency, not comments… as of now there’s a > > dependency > > > > with a Categoxy X software and IPMC made clear its position. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 5:36 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > > > ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Also, its not even clear to me if we are even referencing RedPanda > > > > beyond a > > > > > string in the setup of the IT code. > > > > > I do not think that the rule forbids mentioning "Oracle" and > > "RedPanda" > > > > in > > > > > the source code (that will be as absurd as not being able to have a > > > > comment > > > > > mentioning red pandas). What the rule forbids is including, in our > > > > > distribution, that software (which we are not doing) > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 7:13 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > > toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary > > solution, > > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does "temporary" mean "until graduating incubator"? > > > > > > > > > > > > If yes, then removing the test code from source release wouldn't > > > bring > > > > > much > > > > > > value, because "Has Category X dependencies" is a Minor Issue > which > > > > also > > > > > > gives us time until graduation ( > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469), so our option > > > seems > > > > to > > > > > > be > > > > > > only one which Ricardo suggested. > > > > > > > > > > > > Toshiya > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 5:02 AM Alex Porcelli <a...@porcelli.me> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing the test code from source release is a temporary > > solution, > > > > > > > and it's also a manual (error prone!) process. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IPMC has been clear about legal implications in a similar case > we > > > had > > > > > > > with the Oracle JDBC driver. The mentioned license is CategoryX > > and > > > > > > > can't be referenced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, different TLP might have different interpretations, but > IPMC > > > has > > > > > > > been clear about theirs for us (again, using the Oracle JDBC as > > the > > > > > > > reference). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 11:50 AM Gonzalo Muñoz < > > > > gonzalo51...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding more context to this, Quarkus Kafka Dev services uses > > > > Redpanda > > > > > > as > > > > > > > default option (they also have Strimzi and native Kafka, but > have > > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > opted-in). > > > > > > > > The rationale is "Because starting a Kafka broker can be > long, > > > Dev > > > > > > > Services for Kafka uses Redpanda, a Kafka compatible broker > which > > > > > starts > > > > > > in > > > > > > > ~1 second." [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, for example, in kogito-apps, there was no reference to > > > > Redpanda, > > > > > > > just the use of Quarkus Kafka Dev Services which delegates as > > > default > > > > > to > > > > > > > Redpanda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] https://quarkus.io/guides/kafka-dev-services > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El vie, 13 dic 2024 a las 17:31, ricardo zanini fernandes (< > > > > > > > ricardozan...@gmail.com>) escribió: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Folks, replacing Redpanda with Apache Kafka will deteriorate > > our > > > > > test > > > > > > > cases > > > > > > > >> since the first is a lightweight version of the Kafka > > > > implementation > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Our tests are already a pain to run, consuming too many > > > resources > > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> infrastructure. Can't we just NOT distribute the IT sources? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Alternatively, we can remove docker containers and have a > > Kafka > > > > Mock > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > >> re-engineering our test architecture slightly and use > > > Apache/Kafka > > > > > > ONLY > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >> very specific cases (if any). > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Let me know what you think, and I will open a vote thread. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> [1] > > > > > > > > > > https://www.redpanda.com/guides/kafka-alternatives-kafka-limitations > > > > > > > >> [2] https://www.baeldung.com/kafka-mockproducer > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 6:37 AM Francisco Javier Tirado > Sarti > > < > > > > > > > >> ftira...@redhat.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I vote for B), that way we remove the IT test, if any, > from > > > the > > > > > > source > > > > > > > >> > distribution, which I think is good anyway. because we if > w > > > only > > > > > > > distribute > > > > > > > >> > the actual running code and its sources, we are reducing > the > > > > size > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > distributable (and in SW, the smaller, if working, the > > better) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 7:16 AM Toshiya Kobayashi < > > > > > > > tkoba...@redhat.com> > > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > Thank you, Andrea. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > As Alex suggested, we would: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > A) Replace redpanda with another container which is > under > > an > > > > > > > acceptable > > > > > > > >> > > license (e.g. apache/kafka) > > > > > > > >> > > or > > > > > > > >> > > B) Exclude the relevant test cases from the source > > > > distribution > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > It will be tracked by > > > > > > > >> > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > Thanks! > > > > > > > >> > > Toshiya > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 7:37 PM Alex Porcelli < > > > > a...@porcelli.me > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Based on some inputs we got from IPMC when discussing > > > Oracle > > > > > > JDBC > > > > > > > >> > > > dependency, the test dependencies on CategoryX are > also > > > not > > > > > > > allowed. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The workaround could be that the source is not > released > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> > binaries > > > > > > > >> > > > aren’t directly dependent on those. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 5:28 AM Andrea Cosentino < > > > > > > > anco...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > >> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> In the past they were excluded. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> At some point the license changed and it was no more > in > > > the > > > > > > > category > > > > > > > >> > X. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> I don't remember the dependency anyway. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> Il giorno gio 12 dic 2024 alle ore 11:12 Toshiya > > > Kobayashi > > > > < > > > > > > > >> > > >> toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> ha scritto: > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thank you for the reply, Andrea. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > If the dependency is used just for testing and > it's > > > not > > > > > > part > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > >> > > >> > release, there are no impediments in using it. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > We were doing something similar in Apache Camel > too > > > for > > > > > > some > > > > > > > >> > > >> > dependencies with license non-compliant with ASF > > rules. > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Are those dependencies excluded from the source zip > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > Apache > > > > > > > >> > > Camel > > > > > > > >> > > >> > release? > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Thanks, > > > > > > > >> > > >> > Toshiya > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 5:35 PM Andrea Cosentino < > > > > > > > anco...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Hello Toshiya, > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> If the dependency is used just for testing and > it's > > > not > > > > > part > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> release, there are no impediments in using it. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> We were doing something similar in Apache Camel > too > > > for > > > > > some > > > > > > > >> > > >> dependencies > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> with license non-compliant with ASF rules. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Cheers. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> Il giorno mer 11 dic 2024 alle ore 09:30 Toshiya > > > > > Kobayashi < > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> toshiyakobaya...@gmail.com> ha scritto: > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Hello, > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Currently we have GHA test failures with "pull > > access > > > > > > denied > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> vectorized/redpanda" in kogito repos. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> I filed a GH issue. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-issues/issues/1682 > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Also I have filed a PR to replace > > > > > > > "vectorized/redpanda:v21.11.8" > > > > > > > >> > > with > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "redpandadata/redpanda:v24.3.1". > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-runtimes/pull/3812 > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> and now I'm waiting for CI. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Here I want to raise a point. redpanda is under > > > > Business > > > > > > > Source > > > > > > > >> > > >> License > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> 1.1. > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > https://github.com/redpanda-data/redpanda/blob/dev/licenses/bsl.md > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> , which is Category X ( > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#category-x > > > > ). > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> A question to our mentors; Claus, Andrea and > Brian: > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> redpanda is used for test infrastructure. Is it > > > > > considered > > > > > > as > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> "dependency"? > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> If yes, using redpanda is considered as "Has > > > Category X > > > > > > > >> > > dependencies" > > > > > > > >> > > >> in > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-469 > ? > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Regards, > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> Toshiya > > > > > > > >> > > >> >>> > > > > > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
