I meant to say it’s not a simple thing even to make one simple change in an open source project. Typing after chopping wood it’s easy to miss some lttrs :-)
> On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Paul Benedict <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Jason, I am sorry but to disagree with you. Your statistics are still not >> telling a full story. I can glance at the commit graphs of these 76 logback >> contributors rather quickly to see really how "diverse" this community is. >> >> * 35 (~45%) only ever made 1 contribution >> * 18 (~25%) have only ever made 2 contributions >> * 16 (~20%) have between 3-10 contributions. >> > > This is still awesome. I would love to have 35 contributors making one > change. It all adds up. > >> That leaves only 7 logback contributors (~10%) who actually do something. >> And of those 7, only 4 committed something in 2015 ... and Cecki is the >> leader by far. It's clearly a very visible one man show with sparse >> contributions from others. >> >> Based on these numbers, I think Log4J2 has the better community involvement. >> > > Everyone will interpret numbers as they wish but it’s a simple thing even to > make one change in an open source project. 99% of people never do so to have > that number of people make one or two changes is a significant thing. > >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> A contributor on that page is not a comparison of committers vs not. >>> People who have made pull requests to Maven are listed as contributors. >>> Just as they would for Log4J2. A measure, albeit one, of the overall >>> diversity of contribution. >>> >>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Paul Benedict <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I am writing regarding this statement: "Ceki may do more commits but it’s >>>> certainly not a one man show. 76 contributors for Logback and 8 >>>> contributors for Log4J2." >>>> >>>> The numbers in themselves do not tell a full story. It's in appropriate >>> to >>>> conclude that since 76 > 8, therefore logback is a better choice. The 8 >>>> contributors in Log4J2 have been voted in according to Apache bylaws. >>>> Conversely, there aren't any bylaws for logback; the logback Github >>> project >>>> owner can freely grant commit privileges at will ... and evidently, they >>>> do! So the bar for committer rights is much (much) lower than at Apache. >>> I >>>> don't think the above comparison is fair toward log4j2. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 12:25 PM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> great, more constructive feedback :-) >>>>>> Thanks Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> Both projects are well known and widely used even if log4j v2 is >>> younger >>>>>> with less downloads such figures are not really representative with all >>>>>> caches/repositories managers I think. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don’t have a single peer that uses Log4j2 and that’s important to me. >>> I >>>>> do not believe Log4J2 is well known or widely use. I think 3 years of >>>>> releases is fairly representative in that Logback is getting close to >>> the >>>>> Log4J incoming edge count and if you remove all the incoming edges from >>>>> Apache there are not a lot of users. >>>>> >>>>>> About logback vs log4j I have really no real preference technically >>>>>> speaking (I had both branches working in the past and used them a lot >>> in >>>>> my >>>>>> professional life - http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/). >>>>>> >>>>>> In term of community, Log4J is in our apache community and we have few >>>>>> active committers arround. On Logback side even if I really appreciate >>>>> Ceki >>>>>> I'm always afraid about this one-man show project. (and Ceki isn't >>>>> perfect >>>>>> too when we see the nightmare of slf4j-api 1.5+ incompatibilities we >>>>> always >>>>>> have in 2016 !!). >>>>> >>>>> Ceki may do more commits but it’s certainly not a one man show. 76 >>>>> contributors for Logback and 8 contributors for Log4J2. It’s stable and >>>>> mature at this point with 54 releases versus 33 for Log4J2. I don’t >>> think >>>>> any person responsible for picking a package for logging would get much >>>>> support in their organization for Log4J2, as the data would suggest. I >>>>> think with few contributors and usage it would likely be deemed a less >>> wise >>>>> choice than Logback and possibly a risk. There are also lots of Apache >>>>> projects that use Logback. I think pragmatism is a factor in all the >>> other >>>>> projects at Apache who selected Logback. Being at Apache obviously >>> wasn’t >>>>> the determining criterion and it shouldn’t be. >>>>> >>>>>> I agree that we are just talking about a logging implementation but you >>>>> saw >>>>>> what it gave for eclipse/aether …. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I’m not sure what your point is here. No one worked on any of the parts, >>>>> ever, whether here or at Eclipse. I doubt anyone will work on it when it >>>>> comes back. So I’m not sure what analogy you’re trying to make. >>>>> >>>>>> I'm clearly not enough involved enough in the project to try to >>> convince >>>>>> anyone about a choice to do but I can just say that not having a >>>>> colorized >>>>>> console in 2016 is .... irritating. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the problem reported by Gary I think that applying the fix in >>>>>> >>>>> >>> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties >>>>>> ( >>>>>> >>>>> >>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 >>>>>> ) >>>>>> is safe to be back-ported in master. It is just that >>>>>> org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactorywas for Log4J 1 AFAIU and now that >>>>>> Log4J2 is release/stabilized there is a new one : >>>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If I asked Ceki for help I’d get it immediately also. Who isn’t going to >>>>> help there to get their library bundled with Maven? >>>>> >>>>>> For the replacement of the implementation and activate colors I prefer >>> to >>>>>> let active committers decide of what they are doing (I imagine that for >>>>> any >>>>>> choice they are doing it doesn't avoid you to use another one in your >>> own >>>>>> distribution ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I would prefer log4j2 but clearly I never merged it because of the >>> slf4j >>>>>> conflict that I don't understand (but I didn't spend a lot of time on >>> it) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To me the most important factor is usage, of course you need some >>>>> threshold of developers so that people are working on it but even there >>> I’d >>>>> say it’s pretty sparse in Log4J2. But with widespread usage comes >>>>> examination, issue submissions, pull requests and ultimately more people >>>>> that contribute and that’s clearly the case with Logback. I don’t see >>> how >>>>> you can logically refute that and see Log4J2 a better choice because of >>>>> what organization it’s developed within? Logback has a community it just >>>>> doesn’t happen to be here, and Ceki's not some random guy. He also has a >>>>> long track record of open source dedication and contribution. >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> These are the numbers I arrived at, happy to run them with different >>>>>>> coordinates but thought these were representative: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'log4j:log4j').inE.count() >>>>>>> ==>84570 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'ch.qos.logback:logback-classic').inE.count() >>>>>>> ==>62389 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> gremlin> g.V('vc', 'org.apache.logging.log4j:log4j-core').inE.count() >>>>>>> ==>3134 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These are incoming edges across all versions of said coordinate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As we said previously when the the question arose again there would >>> be >>>>> a >>>>>>> discussion. You may not remember, but I expect there to be a >>> discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have built a graph of Maven Central to analyze the rank (count of >>> all >>>>>>> incoming edges) for Log4J2 and Logback and it is clear from those >>>>> numbers >>>>>>> that everyone has gone from Log4J to Logback. What has happened, I >>>>> believe >>>>>>> from the numbers, is that the community followed the founder of the >>>>> project >>>>>>> and not the owner project in pretty much the exact same way users went >>>>> with >>>>>>> Jenkins and not Hudson. Anyone is happy to take the graph and verify >>>>> this >>>>>>> themselves, or generate their own data from the machine that is >>> housing >>>>> the >>>>>>> copy of Maven Central at Google. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Additionally Igor has an implementation for logging during concurrent >>>>>>> builds based on Logback that I would really like to use, and the color >>>>>>> logging is also easy with Logback. I do not want to use something that >>>>> the >>>>>>> community at large has not adopted. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Again, anyone is welcome to the code and/or the data if they want to >>>>>>> verify this themselves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also am not interested in a debate so if we disagree then just >>> leave >>>>>>> the simple implementation in place. I’m not philosophically motivated >>>>> much >>>>>>> here in these discussions but I’m vehemently opposed to integrating >>>>> Log4J2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Arnaud Héritier <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thanks for this valuable comment Jason :( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Jason van Zyl <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -1 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Do not merge this branch. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 6, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Tibor Digana <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, >>>>>>>>>>> Do you plan a Release Version to merge this branch o master in >>>>> Maven? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Arnaud Héritier [via Maven] < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just because only 2.4 was available when I updated this feature >>>>>>> branch >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>> months ago. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Le mardi 5 janvier 2016, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=0>> a >>> écrit : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Arnaud, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the update. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not update the Log4j 2 dep from 2.4 to 2.5? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Arnaud Héritier <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=1> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gary, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fixed this in the branch : >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commits/slf4j-log4j2.4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fix is in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> maven-embedder/src/main/resources/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ( >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> https://github.com/apache/maven/commit/8cddea291c279130d437bcdf3337f16296558530 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is the update I did after my old blog post : >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.aheritier.net/united-colors-of-maven/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BR >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Gary Gregory <[hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=2> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Happy Holidays. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can the next version of Maven be rid of this warning: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] The SLF4J binding actually used is not supported by >>>>> Maven: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> org.apache.logging.slf4j.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] Maven supported bindings are: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [WARN] (from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> jar:file:/E:/Java/apache-maven-3.3.9/bin/../lib/maven-embedder-3.3.9.jar!/META-INF/maven/slf4j-configuration.properties) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ch.qos.logback.classic.LoggerContext >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.helpers.Log4jLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - org.slf4j.impl.SimpleLoggerFactory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a step I am missing to use Log4j 2 cleanly? My steps >>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://garygregory.wordpress.com/2015/03/23/watch-maven-in-color/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=3> >>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>> | [hidden >>>>>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=4> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < >>>>> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: [hidden email] >>>>>>>>>>>> <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=5> >>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>> | [hidden >>>>>>>>>>>> email] <http:///user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=5857870&i=6> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <javascript:;> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition < >>> http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/ >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the >>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>> below: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857870.html >>>>>>>>>>>> To start a new topic under Maven Developers, email >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from Maven Developers, click here >>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&node=142166&code=dGlib3JkaWdhbmFAYXBhY2hlLm9yZ3wxNDIxNjZ8LTI4OTQ5MjEwMg== >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> NAML >>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> View this message in context: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://maven.40175.n5.nabble.com/Log4j-Warning-tp5856237p5857942.html >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Maven Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> Arnaud Héritier >>>>>> http://aheritier.net >>>>>> Mail/GTalk: aheritier AT gmail DOT com >>>>>> Twitter/Skype : aheritier >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Jason van Zyl >>>>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>>>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>>>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jason >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> Jason van Zyl >>> Founder, Takari and Apache Maven >>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl >>> http://twitter.com/takari_io >>> --------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] >>> >>> > > Thanks, > > Jason > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Jason van Zyl > Founder, Takari and Apache Maven > http://twitter.com/jvanzyl > http://twitter.com/takari_io > --------------------------------------------------------- > > {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] Thanks, Jason ---------------------------------------------------------- Jason van Zyl Founder, Takari and Apache Maven http://twitter.com/jvanzyl http://twitter.com/takari_io --------------------------------------------------------- {script:nopre:"/Users/jvanzyl/signature/signature.sh"} --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] For additional 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