-1 to DISCUSSION? Wow. That's pretty draconian.
Could we agree on "what are the issues?" It feels like FUD right now.
> if you are sure you never want to leave the hole you dug
What does that mean? If the java "promise" is true. Then at any time you
can use a released JDK >= SourceLevel.
> I disagree that frgaal is just like nb-javac
Disagree with what? I didn't see a statement that said it was the same,
AFAICT. It does seem to be javac with the governor disabled.
> niche use cases
Is the claim that using older JDK for runtime rarely happens? I don't
have any data, but...; NetBeans is a case in point, and I know of
others; it can be a corporate (ie irrational:-) ) decision. Seems to be
an undercurrent of "don't need to support the luddites, let them modernize"
> "no surprises". seems the antithesis of this.
If (that's if) the default was source == target, what's the surprise?
User's would have more options.
Here are some possible issues, not sure how unbiased my takes are. But
what are the issues?
- What features does frgaal offer? It it useful for NB user community?
Does it make NB more attractive?
There's hasn't been much discussion of this (I haven't looked at JT's
presentation), seems like this is most important. The NB developers is a
pretty niche group; how representative are they of the java community?
Academia likes the option. It's difficult to get reliable info about
what a broad user community wants/needs; what would bring in new users.
There seems to be general agreement that the current process is
difficult to use, someone mentioned a case where they were not allowed
to upgrade the jdk for any use.
- What are the risks?
Just came out of nb-javac hell. Is there a concern about bad code
generation (that's not already in JDK?)
- What are the problems?
Language vs API. It get's loaded from maven central, does that moot the
"ASF legal process..."?
Once the issues are understood, it's easier to discuss them.
IMO, having this capability actively supported, more than just you can
make it work, could benefit a larger community and be an attractive feature.
There seems to be a resounding '-1', but I'm not sure for what really.
There also seems to be some consensus that its difficult going to a
newer jdk, though it's been considerable improved and there more that
could be done.
-ernie
On 10/5/22 10:47 AM, Jaroslav Tulach wrote:
Hi.
Recently I brought [Frgaal retrofit compiler](http://frgaal.org) to your
attention again. There was a [PR-4682](https://github.com/apache/netbeans/
pull/4682) and then a discussion in the thread about (not) supporting ecj in
NetBeans: https://lists.apache.org/[email protected] - thank
you for your comments.
It all boils down to a simple question: Shall NetBeans try to improve
shortcomings of the JDK?
I have recently given a talk [Forget/Ignore Kotlin, use Java19](https://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-8ySwFgqg). There is a slide describing the benefits
of Kotlin around 5th minute. Clearly the fact that the Kotlin language quickly
evolves and still can be used to generate JDK8 code is a huge benefit.
Frgaal (described around 25 minute) can do the same. It has been modeled to
mimic the Kotlin model:
- language specification independent of the JDK
- compiler version specified as part of project build script
Moreover Frgaal is 100% compatible with future Java language specification -
easy to drop it after switching to newest JDK. Overall it is way easier to
adopt latest Java thru Frgaal than trying to switch to a completely new
language. Why do I have to explain it again and again?
NetBeans can support Frgaal without any problems as it is also (just like nb-
javac) a member of the Javac family. All these compilers generate exactly the
same errors and provide the same WYSIWYG experience. Same errors in the IDE,
same on the command line, same on the CI.
All that is needed is: We have to realize that "innovation happens elsewhere"
and make Java better than the one produced by the JDK team!
Anyone has guts to follow better-than-JDK vision? Then let me integrate Frgaal
into NetBeans and bring the latest Java language features to users of older
JDKs.
-jt
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