Ok, I'm glad we could clarify that đ. I really don't want to sell DukeScript - actually if we're implementing some of the stuff discussed here it will be harder to sell our JXBrowser (Chromium) presenters as there will be an Apache licensed free alternative.
I agree that the discussion here is quite long, sometimes heated, and it's getting hard to keep track. And I agree that we should probably get back from UI toolkit flame wars to something more productive. What drives me and likely also Jaroslav is to point out, that with HTML/Java we possibly have a good way to future proof NetBeans and we're willing to invest some time to investigate that. For this the feedback we filtered out was valuable. The messages from Chris, Neil and Emilian gave me a new perspective and valuable feedback to how they currently see this part of NetBeans, and how we can improve it. Cheers Toni -----UrsprĂźngliche Nachricht----- Von: Peter Steele <steeleh...@gmail.com> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 17:30 An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFXfromOracle JDK Toni Apologies, I didn't mean to offend. I'm just frustrated with a lot of the conversations here. If I miss interpreted you "selling" dukescript to the group I apologies. There are, what looks to be, so many intermingled conversations here. People are trying to solve a problem which doesn't currently need solving, I'd rather people concentrate on the current product and make that better rather than waste time working out how replace swing. On 15 Mar 2018 16:17, <toni.ep...@eppleton.de> wrote: Peter, Did I say MVVM is a technology? Are we using MVVM with Swing? HTML/Java uses it, so it would be new (and in my opinion) better way from what we've got. Running the IDE in a Browser means, at least in my interpretation, that the program logic is executed in the browser. With HTML/Java the logic is running in the JVM, only the view is rendered in HTML. That is the difference. Where did I propose to use DukeScript Presenters or DukeScript proprietary stuff for any of this? I only mentioned it as an example to show it's possible to use other renderers than JavaFX WebView. I'm beginning to feel Jaroslav's pain. --Toni -----UrsprĂźngliche Nachricht----- Von: Peter Steele <steeleh...@gmail.com> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 17:01 An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org Betreff: Re: AW: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove JavaFXfromOracle JDK Toni MVVM is an architecture, not a technology. You can use any technology to implement it (there are even some that use swing). If you want the whole ui rendered in HTML 5, you need something to parse html, CSS and JavaScript. Which, despite what you say, needs a browser like rendering engine. Which brings us back to running an ide in a browser. If there was no javafx, swing or awt what would dukescript use as the rendering engine? Netbeans already has good support for web technologies, and already has the ability to run those in the browser of your choice. I see no reason for other people to add more including your dukescript, the product is open source and there is no reason not to create a module if you want to promote your own project And lastly because Dukescript is a commercial product (if you want no ads, nag screen) i would say we should not even consider it as a potential risk long term alternative to swing. There are other free alternatives and these should be considered as and when there is actually a need to do. This conversation has gone on long enough, can we please re focus on netbeans. On 15 Mar 2018 14:59, <toni.ep...@eppleton.de> wrote: > These things can happen in parallel. I for my part cannot help much > with Python or Groovy features, but I can help with the POCs to > improve NB UI and make it future proof. If for example we manage to > replace JavaFX WebView with something better, contributors like Chris > Lenz will be able to use more HTML5 features for writing their plugins > and the performance of HTML-based plugins will improve. > > Maybe some of the Swing/JavaFX developers will also try it out and > realize that developing with modern ui patterns like MVVM can > dramatically speed up development, and lead to more testable and > stable code while reducing the LOC. This would have the immediate > effect of better code that needs less maintenance. > > But we can also offer them a way to still run their ( in my opinion > horribly archaic đ ) Swing code. > > As a side effect we could also replace the embedded Browser for > debugging web applications with a real browser and make Web > Development in NB even more attractive. Projects like the Oracle JET > support in NetBeans, but also EE projects could directly benefit from that. > > You're right these changes are driven by longer term goals, but they > will also create huge short term improvements. > > And since there's a lot of confusion here between "web technologies" > and "web applications": I for my part don't want to run NetBeans in a Browser. > I want NetBeans to remain a traditional Desktop application, which can > use modern HTML5 UIs and is prepared for the end of Swing. > > --Toni > > > > -----UrsprĂźngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Wade Chandler <wadechand...@apache.org> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. März 2018 14:40 > An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > Betreff: Re: Apache HTML/Java UI instead of ... Oracle will remove > JavaFXfromOracle JDK > > > > On Mar 15, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Neil C Smith <neilcsm...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > Anyway, this whole thing is going a bit in circles. We need to look > > at improving the POCs in NetBeans to be able to show where (and > > where > > not) this approach is viable and useful. > > > > Agreed, but I think, so IMO, those just take us off the things that > will actually have direct and immediate impacts. We can work on NB > just as it is, and work to fix the index lock issues, add new Java > parsing, add better language and feature support for some things like > Groovy and Python, and generally move ahead, even while fixing some > issues in Swing/AWT, or bog down in all this talk of web UIs which > starts to make a lot of work which in the end didnât really move the > needle because weâll still have a desktop IDE, but a lot of time would have been spent to just get further behind. > > Wade > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
