Hi Chris, I understand your concern surrounding SN influence. Please first understand that there is no way to influence the PMC decision since all the decisions are carried out publicly and each PMC member can provide his/her thoughts. Secondly, the SN program merely provides the opportunity for the participants to brainstorm ideas with the PMC members who are currently working at SN. It is worth noticing that the vast majority of the Pulsar PMC members do not even work for SN.
In response to your accusation of SN using the Apache dev list to recruit, please be mindful that the program was only brought up in this thread. SN has never intended to recruit using the dev list and the reason it was mentioned in the last response was to provide transparency since you were questioning that the SN was controlling the roadmap. I appreciate the time and effort you spent on looking into this issue. Looking forward to collaborating more in the community in the future. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks, Sijie On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 8:53 PM Chris Latimer <ch...@chrislatimer.com> wrote: > Hi Sijie, > > I am not claiming that StreamNative controls the Pulsar roadmap. I'm saying > that the StreamNative tweet unequivocally makes the claim that StreamNative > controls the Pulsar roadmap. The tweet specifically instructs people to > join a StreamNative program to influence the open source Apache Pulsar > roadmap by collaborating with PMC members. That's completely counter to the > way the Apache process is intended to work. > > StreamNative is of course welcome to organize whatever types of programs it > wishes within the bounds of the Apache guidelines around Pulsar. However, I > find it an egregious abuse of StreamNative's representation on the PMC to > prevent the community from self-organizing to achieve many of the same > stated aims of the StreamNative Ambassador program[1] only to turn around > and direct the community to a vendor-specific alternative. > > I also find it highly inappropriate, but unfortunately not surprising, that > the Apache dev list is being used to advertise and recruit people into SN's > Ambassador marketing program. When prominent members of the PMC are using > their position to advance their own business interests rather than the > interests of the community, something is seriously broken in the project > governance here. > > [1]https://lists.apache.org/thread/0sn6okc7b5f0mmtmr8fqx8rskvq8zt8k > > Chris > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 9:16 PM Joshua Odmark <j...@pandio.com> wrote: > > > I don’t think anyone is surprised that you, the CEO of SN, doesn’t see a > > problem with you conflating a program offered by your own commercial > > company, that in the exact same sentence, invites people to join a SN > > sponsored opportunity to work on the roadmap with the PMC. That is quite > > literally offering inside access through your commercial entity. You did > it > > again in your response. > > > > I understand how decisions are made in ASF and I couldn’t think less of > SN. > > > > It’s like me saying, I am good friends with the CEO of Ford Motor > Company. > > If you want Ford Motor Company as a customer, you should join my Ford > > Ambassador Program. Ford would have a problem with that, and so should > the > > PMC of Apache Pulsar. > > > > This is exactly what Confluent started doing with the Kafka community. > They > > did everything they could to make Confluent == Kafka. Great for > Confluent, > > terrible for the community. > > > > SN != Pulsar > > > > On Dec 10, 2021 at 7:25:29 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Chris and Dave, > > > > > > Thank you for bringing the concern up. However, I don’t think the > concern > > > of this tweet is valid, and also the complaint of “StreamNative > controls > > > the roadmap” sounds ridiculous to me. > > > > > > First of all, under the Apache Way, PMC controls the roadmap. > > > > > > Lots of StreamNative team members are long-time ASF contributors. In > > > relation to adhering strictly to the ASF policy, we understand it very > > well > > > and we follow the Apache Way. To be more specific, as Dave mentioned in > > his > > > email, we understand that the Apache Way says “If it is not on the dev > > > list, it doesn’t happen”. That’s exactly how our team members make > > > contributions and participate in the community. We not only ask our > team > > > members to follow the Apache Way, but also encourage our users, > > customers, > > > and partners to participate in the community in the same manner. > > > > > > To iterate, all the discussions/proposals made in the dev mailing list > > must > > > be approved/rejected by the PMC. Hence the PMC has the ultimate say > (not > > > StreamNative) in the direction of the project. Your false accusation of > > > StreamNative controlling the roadmap indicates that either you don’t > > fully > > > understand how the decision is made in ASF or you think way too much of > > > StreamNative :) > > > > > > Secondly, EVERYONE can contribute to the project roadmap. PMC > > > approves/rejects proposals by casting its votes. This is how the ASF > > > community works and how the ASF maintains vendor-neutral. No one except > > PMC > > > controls the roadmap but EVERYONE has the freedom to propose and > > > contribute. > > > > > > To elaborate more on the process, every PMC member has the free right > and > > > should be encouraged to talk to the broader community to discuss ideas. > > > They bring ideas back to the mailing list for discussion. We work with > > > Pulsar users and customers every day. We observe and learn what the > users > > > are doing, discussing, and requesting. We then bring the ideas back as > > > proposals or encourage the users/customers to propose the ideas > directly > > in > > > the mailing list which as discussed above, to be approved/rejected by > the > > > PMC. > > > > > > At StreamNative, we are extremely fortunate to work with the PMC > members, > > > committers, and contributors who help and guide people to contribute to > > the > > > project roadmap and empower the community. If anyone is interested in > how > > > the Ambassador Program works, I would encourage everyone to sign up for > > the > > > program to help us grow the adoption of Apache Pulsar. > > > > > > Lastly, my humble suggestion - if you are really passionate about > Pulsar, > > > let’s do something positive for the community instead of passing > > complaints > > > and creating false accusations. You are welcome to submit a PIP or PR, > > talk > > > to the users in the community to hear what the users really need, > improve > > > the software, and organize a meetup, etc. I am more than happy to help > > you > > > get started contributing. > > > > > > - Sijie > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:57 PM Chris Latimer <ch...@chrislatimer.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Saying that tweet implies that SN wants to control the roadmap is > putting > > > > > > it mildly. It is very clearly stating that StreamNative controls the > > > > > > roadmap and that the way to get involved and help shape the technology > is > > > > > > by engaging with SN via their Ambassador program. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 1:47 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 9, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave - I don't think SN presents the community. We just shared out > > > > > > > insights > > > > > > > > on community progress. Also, if you looked into our past blog > posts, > > we > > > > > > > > have been pointing people to the Pulsar website and Slack channel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This tweet > > https://twitter.com/streamnativeio/status/1469366308022013953 > > > > > > > from today implies SN wants to control the roadmap. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the Apache Way the project roadmap is discussed on the dev list. > If > > > > > > > it’s not on the dev list it didn’t happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Sijie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 12:13 PM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> OK. I see the new name. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> My concern is about SN posting blogs that are about community news > > > > > > > without > > > > > > > >> telling readers where the whole Pulsar community can be found. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> On Dec 9, 2021, at 6:18 AM, Dianjin Wang <djw...@streamnative.io > > > > > > > .INVALID> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> I want to sync the blog status, the update has been done. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Best, > > > > > > > >>> Dianjin Wang > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2021 at 2:34 PM Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>> Hi Dave, > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Will follow up tomorrow morning (Pacific Time). > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> - Sijie > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 9:35 PM Dave Fisher < > wave4d...@comcast.net > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Sijie, > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for handling this issue. I’ll check in my morning. There > > > > > > was a > > > > > > > >>>>> reference on the Community Newsletter as well. Please check > that > > > > > > too. > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Best Regards, > > > > > > > >>>>> Dave > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Dec 8, 2021, at 9:24 PM, Sijie Guo <guosi...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Dave, > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> I think that is a mistake. We already caught it. Dianjin is > > fixing > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> - Sijie > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 11:41 AM Dave Fisher <w...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> This is great news! > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> However the ending of the blog post [1] does not follow the > > > > > > Apache > > > > > > > >> Way > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> This bullet point is misleading and serves to split the > > > > > > community. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> • Join the 2022 Pulsar Ambassador Program and work directly > > with > > > > > > > >>>> Pulsar > > > > > > > >>>>>>> PMCs and top contributors to co-host events, promote new > > project > > > > > > > >>>>> updates, > > > > > > > >>>>>>> and build the Pulsar community in your city. Contact Us: > > > > > > > >>>>>>> ambassa...@streamnative.io > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> (1) This mailing list (dev@pulsar.apache.org) is the one and > > > > > > only > > > > > > > >>>> place > > > > > > > >>>>>>> to work directly with the whole of the Apache Pulsar > community. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> (2) If you engage in this unofficial, vendor-specific > > > > > > “Ambassador” > > > > > > > >>>>> program > > > > > > > >>>>>>> you are not growing the whole and miss connecting with most > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>>> true > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Apache Pulsar community. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Please rewrite or remove this divisive bullet point. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Here is a blog post about how Apache is supposed to work. [2] > > And > > > > > > > >> more > > > > > > > >>>>>>> about the Apache Way [3] > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> FYI - PMCs is plural for PMC. Apache Pulsar is one of 200+ > > Apache > > > > > > > >>>> PMCs. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> PMC’s have members who are individuals. Here are definitions > of > > > > > > > roles > > > > > > > >>>>> [4]. > > > > > > > >>>>>>> The community consists of people who are in all of these > > roles. A > > > > > > > >>>>> project > > > > > > > >>>>>>> is supposed to be managed as described here. [5] > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> All The Best, > > > > > > > >>>>>>> Dave > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> [1] > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://streamnative.io/blog/community/2021-12-07-pulsar-hits-10000-github-stars-milestone/ > > > > > > > >>>>>>> [2] > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-way-to-sustainable > > > > > > > >>>>>>> [3] https://www.apache.org/theapacheway/index.html > > > > > > > >>>>>>> [4] > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles > > > > > > > >>>>>>> [5] > > > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Dec 7, 2021, at 9:36 PM, Yu <li...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Hi Pulsar enthusiasts, > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Our community has been growing ever-faster since it became a > > > > > > > >>>> top-level > > > > > > > >>>>>>> project of the ASF in 2018. > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Recently, Pulsar hits 10, 000 Github stars milestone! We > would > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > >>>> to > > > > > > > >>>>>>> thank every stargazer for joining us on the journey. More > > > > > > > >> importantly, > > > > > > > >>>>>>> thank you to every Pulsar user, contributor, and committer > for > > > > > > > making > > > > > > > >>>>> this > > > > > > > >>>>>>> happen! > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Here is a glance at the vibrancy of the Pulsar community: > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> For more details about Pulsar's community growth, recent > > > > > > updates, > > > > > > > >> and > > > > > > > >>>>>>> future plans, see here. > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > > > > > > > >>>>>>>> Anonymitaet > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
