Do it Josh. Do what you say you will. For once.
Crazy talk? It’s honesty. And the lack of it in this project is what is driving
it to malaise. Stephen, when you were in meetings with Apache Board about me,
did you tell them about you? Bohahaha! …. $1000 says you didn’t. Eeek — hide,
run, hide. When people stop being honest and start chatting with me offline in
a completely different tone than online with a “bro, you know I have a
family”-style, this is when you are sacrificing the project for your other
objectives. This is when you are just trying to make things look good for your
employers, reputation, ’the board’ …. Be honest with yourself and everyone.
That is where the creative spark lies.
So, I ask you:
1. OLAP bulk write.
2. gremlin-spark/ DataFrames.
3. All traversal parameters determined dynamically by traversals.
Do you still uphold that this is not “enterprise” or “innovation is not
needed”? Or are you going to say what you know is true: “Yes, these are great
features! Damn, I wish we had this.” And next, you know my terms. How would you
accomplish this? I’m glad you asked.
1. Tell ’The Board’ what ’social norms’ you have violated.
2. Tell them to kick you off the PMC because arguably, they are way
worse than me telling jokes online.
3. Watch them squirm as their ‘moral code’ implodes.
4. Then we start doing some real work on TinkerPop.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy,
Marko.
> On May 1, 2021, at 11:35 PM, Joshua Shinavier <j...@fortytwo.net> wrote:
>
> Okiedokie. Lots to unpack there, but let me just say this one thing:
> Haskell rocks.
>
> Anyway, I think there are good technical reasons for optimism about the
> current state of TinkerPop. If you are suggesting some alternative to
> incremental improvements, plus prototyping the more substantial changes,
> the specifics of it are not clear from your emails. Maybe Stephen has more
> context on a previous line of conversation than I do, but I don't see how
> the crazy talk is adding anything of value.
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 6:55 PM Marko Rodriguez <okramma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Josh — You have been talking for over 2 years now about what you will
>> accomplish. 2 years ago you asked to be a committer. Do you remember what I
>> said? "You have to do something to be a committer." However, I felt for you
>> because you were looking for a job and I fool-heartedly vouched for you
>> thinking you wouldn’t dare cross me once more with your empty promises.
>> However, once you got your name on the TinkerPop webpage, what have you
>> done since except parade it around on resumes and the like? And some
>> internal Uber code in Haskell is not accomplishing anything for TinkerPop.
>> You fooled us with your promises and now you act (once again) as if you
>> will do something in the future. I’ve worked with you for 15 years now —
>> think about it 15 years as your CTO in one company, CEO in another, and
>> your advisor at LANL — and it all comes to not. You know it. I would love
>> for you to finally prove me wrong and finally grab the bull by the horns
>> and accomplish something of value instead of relegating Gremlin to “the
>> bastard child of Ripple” and living off the successes of others with your
>> name all proud front-and-center on the work created by the hands of other
>> men.
>>
>> This is the point people. You all have learned how to talk and act, but
>> what have you done in the last 3 years that keeps this project burning
>> beyond the whims of your dying organizations and fading careers? To claim
>> we are now in ‘enterprise world’ or ‘I promise to do’ all the while
>> allowing those who did do stuff to be butchered like pigs in front of your
>> own eyes. Cowards.
>>
>> Stephen — you dilly-dally. Kuppitz left. I left. Your great collaborators
>> faded away … laying in wait for truth once more. You have only so many
>> decisions left to make before you will not come back from the void you are
>> staring into. Nut up — as leader of this project, create the thriving
>> environment we once enjoyed. Don’t let your social and political fears trap
>> you in mediocrity. You are a hero. You will only come to this point again
>> and again and again in your lives to come. Why waste time? Slay the dragon
>> and let us feast on the magical meat of creation once more — as in the time
>> when our dining halls were not filled with lost bards and delirious jesters.
>>
>> Marko.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 1, 2021, at 10:30 AM, Joshua Shinavier <j...@fortytwo.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think a great way to lose developers, and not gain new ones, is to make
>>> negative comments on the dev and/or users list, even if they are only
>> half
>>> serious. Or more than half serious? I can't tell. In any case, I think
>>> TinkerPop is in a good place, and would be surprised if you truly don't
>>> agree. There are Gremlin implementations almost everywhere there are
>> graph
>>> databases. To my mind, the scaffolding stage of the project -- building
>> the
>>> structure and filling the space -- is done. Now we have a chance to go
>> back
>>> and make things truly robust. Formalizing the data model, formalizing the
>>> semantics of traversals in a way which adds power without subtracting
>>> versatility. Building better bridges between TinkerPop-compatible graphs
>>> and the rest of the world's data. Other, OLAPy and distrtibuted-systems-y
>>> things I haven't thought as much about, but which others have. I think
>> some
>>> of the changes will require a clean break from the existing code base,
>>> hence a new major version, but others can follow more of a
>>> replace-and-deprecate pattern.
>>>
>>> Josh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 8:54 AM Marko Rodriguez <okramma...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>> not quite the topic for this thread but...
>>>>
>>>> Oh but it is. Over the last 3 years there has been little done to
>> advance
>>>> the 50% area of the codebase that I wrote — the virtual machine, OLAP,
>> and
>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Talking with DataBricks about gremlin-spark, it’s odd that
>>>> DataFrames hasn’t been adopted.
>>>> 2. Why can’t OLAP do bulk writes/updates?
>>>> 3. Why can’t every parameter in a traversal be determined by a
>>>> traversal?
>>>> 4. …
>>>>
>>>> The problem I see is that TinkerPop doesn’t have any developers anymore.
>>>> All the work is focused on GremlinServer because you know GremlinServer.
>>>> And you know very well that it is because there is a lack of talent on
>> the
>>>> project and in order to make it all look as everything is going swell,
>> you
>>>> say “maintenance mode”, “innovation is over,” “software has gone
>>>> enterprise.”
>>>>
>>>> If this is so, then why is DataBricks having to rewrite
>>>> gremlin-spark/?
>>>> If this is so, then why has mm-ADT solved the parameter traversal
>>>> problem?
>>>>
>>>> You can meander in muck of small changes into the indefinite future or
>> you
>>>> can be a leader and get back the real team that knows how to build
>> quality,
>>>> innovative software. It takes courage, it takes being forthright, it
>> takes
>>>> standing up for greatness.
>>>>
>>>> Else you will be left with what you have in your GoogleDocs table…
>>>> meandering insignificance.
>>>>
>>>> Be a man, do what men do and a work towards re-manifesting the beauty
>> that
>>>> once was else you will regret it in your olden years. And that will be a
>>>> sad state of affairs my old friend.
>>>>
>>>> Marko.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 9:55 AM Marko Rodriguez <okramma...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello mein freunden,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d love to contribute a body of work from mm-ADT that is one of the
>>>> main
>>>>>> issues with the Gremlin language: every step should support pipeline
>>>>>> arguments (i.e., every argument can be a dynamically/traversal
>>>> determined
>>>>>> value). I solved this problem in mm-ADT elegantly and efficiently. A
>>>>>> beautiful feature indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> yep - that remains an open problem with Gremlin. The limitation Java
>>>>> lambdas imposed on GLVs wasn't realized in those early days
>>>> unfortunately.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ….unfortunately, Apache Board overruled the TinkerPop PMC and had me
>>>>>> forcefully removed from the PMC for being (how do you say in American
>>>>>> English?) “Nazi Troll.” If the Board is willing to look past the SS on
>>>> my
>>>>>> uniform and put me back in my rightful place as Obergruppenführer of
>> the
>>>>>> PMC, then we shall be unstoppable!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are my terms. Boohaha.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marko.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 30, 2021, at 7:34 AM, Stephen Mallette <spmalle...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wow, this is great - lots of volunteers! Here's a running list of
>> what
>>>> we
>>>>>>> have so far:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * UnifiedChannelizer - Stephen
>>>>>>> * gremlin-language - Josh
>>>>>>> * Gremlin.Net - Florian
>>>>>>> * gremlin-python - Kelvin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's definitely a lot more topics to tackle. Let's keep expanding
>>>> the
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 9:27 AM Kelvin Lawrence
>>>> <gfx...@yahoo.com.invalid
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am happy to help. The area I have been closest too is probably the
>>>>>>>> enhancements to the Python client. I could write something around
>>>> those
>>>>>>>> features.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers, Kelvin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 30, 2021, at 04:30, f...@florian-hockmann.de wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could write something for .NET. Added GraphBinary support and
>>>>>>>> switching the JSON library could be interesting for some Gremlin.Net
>>>>>> users.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>> Von: Stephen Mallette <spmalle...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. April 2021 21:32
>>>>>>>>> An: dev@tinkerpop.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: 3.5.0 Announcement Volunteers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right now, I think it's fine for these to just have each person's
>>>>>>>> individual style - might make the posts more interesting assuming we
>>>>>> get a
>>>>>>>> few more volunteers. If you can come up with a neat image that could
>>>> go
>>>>>>>> with a tweet to promote the announcement (that we will push through
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> TinkerPop account), that would be cool. We've not really come up
>> with
>>>>>>>> anything that sort of iconifies the gremlin-language module, so if
>> you
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> like thinking about that, that would be neat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joshua Shinavier <
>> j...@fortytwo.net
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sounds good. I'll write the announcement. If you have thoughts on
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> format, please feel free to share.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 10:56 AM Stephen Mallette
>>>>>>>>>> <spmalle...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 1:38 PM Joshua Shinavier <
>>>> j...@fortytwo.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be happy to collaborate on gremlin-language if there is
>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>> which needs doing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> great josh - thanks! The upgrade docs sorta tuck that feature
>> away
>>>>>>>>>>> in the provider section
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> https://tinkerpop.apache.org/docs/3.5.0-SNAPSHOT/upgrade/#_gremlin_lan
>>>>>>>>>> guage
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> because at this point it doesn't have direct user impact, but i
>>>>>>>>>>> think it might be useful to the community to write something in
>> an
>>>>>>>>>>> announcement
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> helps describe what this module lays the foundation for. you've
>> had
>>>>>>>>>>> some interesting ideas in this area that i'm not sure have gotten
>>>>>>>>>>> outside of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> dev list as of yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
