Hi, On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Jerome Velociter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Anca Paula Luca wrote: > > Anca Paula Luca wrote: > >> Marius Dumitru Florea wrote: > >>> Thomas Mortagne wrote: > >>>> Hi devs, > >>>> > >>>> We have to make a decision about that. > >>>> > >>>> So here are the proposals: > >>>> > >>>> 1) remove the block leading and trainling spaces > >>>> * The main goal is to make source formatting for tables for example > >>>> more readable > >>>> > >>>> 2) make the spaces inside paragraph non meaningfull > >>>> * Meaning an HTML like behavior where multiple spaces give one space > >>>> > >>>> 3) in case of 1) or 2) use ~<space> as non breaking space > >>>> > >>>> WDYT ? > >>> -0, the users will blame the WYSIWYG for messing up their nicely > >>> formatted table/lists/etc. when switching between the editors. This > will > >>> make the WYSIWYG unusable for a wiki syntax user. > >> 1/ this problem was there already > > > > with the old syntax I meant > > > >> and, if we use meaningful spaces, we only get > >> rid of the problem because users wouldn't be able to nicely format the > >> tables/lists/etc at all. So meaningful spaces means that you're taking > away the > >> possibility of nicely formated wiki syntax even to users that use _only_ > wiki > >> syntax and therefore could take advantage of it. > >> > >> 2/ as it was mentioned in a discussion we once had with Vincent, I'm > wondering > >> how many wiki syntax users will there be out there once we get the new > wysiwyg > >> strong enough. > > There always will be developers for that (even if not necessarily > through the wiki editor but rather through XEclipse or bespin's editor). > I have doubts about scripting velocity or groovy in a dialog box in the > wysiwyg :) > > My 2 cents, > Jerome. > After thinking a bit more about it, here's my updated point of view: 1. Developers are mostly the only ones who will care about nice syntax formatting in the wiki editor 2. We are working hard to make our wiki easier to use for business users 3. Developers are advanced user thus able to make their way round whether ot not spaces are meaningful in wiki syntax 4. Apart from them, almost nobody cares about nicely aligned tables and indented code 5. As Jérôme pointed it out, developers will use other tools than the wiki editor anyway when developing 6. Thus we're basically fighting with a non-issue: trying to preserve a feature that does not matter for the user base we need to convince our wiki is the greatest around (*business users* are the *core users* of an *enterprise wiki*) So here's my updated vote: *I'm -1 for making spaces non-meaningful, either in the WYSIWYG or the wiki editor.* If developers want nifty development features and great-looking code, we need to provide them with actual development tools (Eclipse, XEclipse, Bespin). Business users don't care about that and they expect to have what you see is what you get: a space when writing is a space on screen once saved, be it in WYSIWYG editor or in wiki syntax. Thanks to everybody's feedback, Guillaume >> Otherwise put, is this use-case frequent enough? >> >> Happy coding, >> Anca >> >>> Marius >>> >>>> +0,5 for 1) it's not critical for me but i'm not against it and we >>>> already decided to remove space before list item, headers etc. >>>> -0 for 2) I don't see the need for that and it's a lot easier for the >>>> parser to make spaces meaningfull (what to do when you have "test ** >>>> bold**" and things like that) >>>> +1 for 3) >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several >>>>> places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive: >>>>> >>>>> * in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example: >>>>> >>>>> |= column1 |= column2 >>>>> | this is some para | second column >>>>> | hello | world >>>>> >>>>> (not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean) >>>>> >>>>> * in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning >>>>> velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write: >>>>> >>>>> #if (....) >>>>> #if (...) >>>>> do something >>>>> # end >>>>> #end >>>>> >>>>> To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669 >>>>> >>>>> What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons >>>>> overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think >>>>> we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including >>>>> for line breaks. >>>>> I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even >>>>> there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non >>>>> breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another >>>>> special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax). >>>>> >>>>> WDYT? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> -Vincent >>>>> http://xwiki.com >>>>> http://xwiki.org >>>>> http://massol.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> devs mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> devs mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >> _______________________________________________ >> devs mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs -- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype ID : wikibc http://guillaumelerouge.com/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
