On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 1:50 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume, > > On Aug 26, 2013, at 12:30 PM, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi developers! > > > > I'm back from holidays. I have read all your messages this morning, and > > this is what I propose for the next 2 weeks (until M2): > > > > (it is based on the proposal D from Caty: > > > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements#HOptionD > ) > > > > * We use the term 'subwiki' instead of 'wiki'. > I'm not very sure of this. Although is very logical, it will produce lots of problems with the documentation and also with our way of referring to wikis. In theory I agree with it, I'm just worried :) I prefer 'wiki' instead of 'subwiki' and 'home' instead of 'wiki'. Although we are simplifying by removing workspace notion, we add another layer of confusion between subwikis vs. wikis. > > * We add an option in the subwiki creation ui called 'users isolation', > > that enable local users for the new subwiki. > > * We add a new right called 'subwiki creation right'. > > * We add a new right called 'users isolation rights', which enable or not > > if the user has the right to use the 'users isolation' option while he is > > creating a new subwiki. > When I proposed D, 'users isolation' was the first thing that came to mind, but I guess can be confusing. I tried to read your proposal and every time I read 'User isolation right' I transformed it to 'Local users creation right', so maybe that's a better name and is on the same direction with the other one: * subwiki - creation right * local users - creation right 'Users isolation' can still be used as a label in the creation step. And having it just as a label will be also much more easy to rename it than adding it as a right name in our core. Regarding the 'creation right' suffix, should we replace it with 'manage right'? I mean right now we don't have a very fined grained palette of rights, but maybe in the future we will want to have 'create comment', 'edit comment', 'delete comment' rights. This mean we could also have something like 'create subwiki' and 'delete subwiki'. The 'subwiki manage right' would imply 'create+edit+delete'. I'm not sure if the namings are good, but since we are starting to add new rights, maybe we should define a naming standard for them. > > * We drop the notion of 'workspaces' and 'farm', since you can have the > > same behaviour with the good set of settings. > > > > Now, I quote Guillaume Lerouge who has explained several use cases, and > > I'll say how to handle it with this proposal: > > > > 1. *Large organization where various groups want to have independent > wikis > > for their knowledge bases:* no local users, wiki creation restricted to > > admins to avoid duplication of KBs > > --> SOLUTION: 'subwiki creation right' only given to admins, 'user > > isolation rights' given to nobody. > > > > 2. *"Pure" wiki farm as on myxwiki.org:* you only want admins to be > able to > > create new wikis to prevent spam. Each wiki has its local users. > > --> SOLUTION: 'subwiki creation right' only given to admins, 'user > > isolation rights' given to admin too. Each time a new subwiki is created, > > the admin select the option 'users isolation'. > > > > 3. *Large organization where people want to work on projects with > > sub-contractors (some wikis act as an extranet):* local users allowed, > > anyone can create a wiki > > --> SOLUTION: 'subwiki creation right' given to all users, 'user > isolation > > rights' given to all users. > > > > 4. *Company where people want to work on internal projects:* local users > > not allowed, anyone can create a wiki > > --> SOLUTION: 'subwiki creation right' given to all users, 'user > isolation > > rights' given to nobody. > > > > As you can see, all the well-knowned use cases are handled by my > proposal. > > I would like to to say if you agree with it. We only have 2 weeks to > > achieve this, and I work only 4 days a week. > > > > WDYT? > I'm +1 to this proposal, with the 'wiki' and 'local users creation right' rename observations > > All sounds good to me, it covers all use cases I know too. > > Just a minor detail: when you say above "given to all users", this can be > replaced by "given to users of a specific group" in some cases. > > The only issue I can see is the addition of 2 new rights in the current > Rights UI for 5.2 final. How do you envision this? > > I guess there are 4 quick solutions (that do not entail a full Rights UI > rewrite): > A - allow horizontal scrolling to see all rights. While this is not > perfect from a UI POV at least it allows us to progress and improve the > Rights UI in the near future. > B - modify a bit the Rights UI but without a full rewrite (for example by > putting the rights in a select box and the users selects the right to > display). Again this would be a quick fix while waiting for the full Rights > UI rewrite. > C - add a SubWiki Admin section in the Admin page and put those 2 new > rights in there FTM. When we do the Rights UI rewrite, we can then move > them there (or not). > D - have 2 special pages with a Rights Object attached to them to > represent the who's allowed to add a subwiki and use users isolation and > have the subwiki creation wizard use thoses pages. This would be while > waiting for the new Rights UI rewrite and/or the addition of those 2 new > rights. > > My preference goes to either A, C or D. I think C might be the best one > even on the longer term since it clearly creates a section proper for > subwiki administration. > > WDYT? > My preference goes to A or C. My first reaction was clearly A, but then I've seen what long names the new rights have :) We surely need to remake the Rights UI, but this is not a priority this release. I will go with option C because the 2 new rights are related mostly to the main wiki, will be changed by a very selected hand of people (so they are not 'global interest' rights, so doesn't make sense to affect all the rights tables) and I think is much more easy to implement this way (by adding a new Administration category). The downside is that we split related functionality. The new Rights UI need to consider the scalability aspect. Thanks, Caty > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > Regards, > > > > Louis-Marie > > > > > > > > 2013/8/2 Jean Coury <[email protected]> > > > >> Hello, > >> > >> Firstly I couldn't read everything because there is a lot of off topics > so > >> forgive me if some of the following should not be here. If you have no > time > >> go the last line directly. > >> > >> I've been struggling with client with all those terms wich look like the > >> same (e.g. Main wiki, sub-wiki and then Workspace, Space) and the fact > that > >> Workspace have "Work" into it and so is not really friendly to the > client's > >> users. My first proposal would have been "Portal > Wiki > Space > Page" > in > >> order to keep the basics and to find an easy way to describe the main > wiki. > >> Then I read multiple threads and have a look to the competitors and > >> find-out that Home as a first term would be great and less technical > than > >> Portal. Moreover Portal is full of connotations and do not show the > >> possibility to customize it. > >> > >> "There is no place like Home" don't you think? > >> Proposal : Home > Wiki > Space > Page > >> > >> Then I looked at the proposal made by Cathy on > >> > >> > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements > >> I would have picked B but I strongly dislike the fact that the product > can > >> be two things at a time and so* > >> => I vote for* *D*. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> > >> 2013/8/1 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <[email protected]> > >> > >>> I vote for D (not B anymore). > >>> > >>> 2013/8/1 Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > >>> > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I like this option. Waiting for further agreement on the sister thread > >>>> about workspaces, I think this is a good solution for XE 5.2. > >>>> > >>>> The downside is that we lose a bit of simplicity, but it's a tough > >> topic. > >>>> > >>>> Guillaume > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > >>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:22 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:26 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Caty, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> See below. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Vincent Massol < > >>>> [email protected]> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu < > >> [email protected]> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On 07/20/2013 07:33 AM, Vincent Massol wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi devs, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> In the Roadmap proposal I've sent for XWiki 5.2 some days > >> ago, > >>>>>> there's > >>>>>>>>> this time: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> " > >>>>>>>>>>> * Have Workspace by default in XE + improved home page - > >> Caty + > >>>>>>>>> Guillaume Delhumeau. FTR Guillaume is not a committer yet but > >>> he's > >>>>>> going to > >>>>>>>>> work full time on XWiki development and especially on UI > >> aspects > >>>> from > >>>>>> now > >>>>>>>>> on. Welcome aboard Guillaume, we need you! :) > >>>>>>>>>>> " > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Denis told me he didn't know about the proposal of having > >>>>> Workspaces > >>>>>>>>> integrated in the default XAR. Thus I'm sending this email to > >>>> ensure > >>>>>> we all > >>>>>>>>> agree about this. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The rationale is: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> * It would be nice that when our users download XWiki > >>> (standalone > >>>>>>>>> version or install the default XAR) they get to see the power > >> of > >>>>>> XWiki. One > >>>>>>>>> of the very important differentiator of XWiki vs other > >>>>> wikis/solutions > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>> our multi-tenancy feature and most of people downloading and > >>>>> installing > >>>>>>>>> XWiki don't see it. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> * XEM/Wiki Manager are lacking polishing because the > >> committers > >>>>>> mostly > >>>>>>>>> polish the default which doesn't include those. The UIs of > >>> XEM/Wiki > >>>>>> Manager > >>>>>>>>> need polishing. Having them in default will ensure that we take > >>>> them > >>>>>> into > >>>>>>>>> account and make them first class citizens when we develop. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Caty started working on the home page/UI improvements > >> required > >>> to > >>>>>>>>> integrate this by default: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/MultiWiki > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Here's my +1 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This is a major shift in how first-time users perceive XWiki. > >>>>> Without > >>>>>>>>>> multi-wiki features, it still looks like a wiki, but if the > >>>> homepage > >>>>>>>>>> changes from a "welcome to your wiki" page to a "here are your > >>>>>>>>>> workspaces" portal, then suddenly XWiki "becomes" something > >> else > >>>> in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> eyes of our users. I used quotes since nothing changes on the > >>>>> inside, > >>>>>>>>>> the multiwiki feature has been there since the beginning, and > >>> the > >>>>>> single > >>>>>>>>>> wiki mode can still be used. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> This isn't the plan as I mentioned in my previous emails. The > >>> plan > >>>> is > >>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>> the home page doesn't change. All that changes for a first time > >>>> user > >>>>>>>>> installing XWiki is that the Add menu will have more entries > >> (Add > >>>>>> Workspace > >>>>>>>>> or Add Wiki or both, Caty is still working on the proposal). > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Proposals: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * Changes to the Menu > >>>>>>>> > >> http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/HomeMenu > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> * "Add menu". I think you forgot to update the 3rd screenshots > >>> which > >>>>> the > >>>>>> colibri skin, right? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> * "Home Menu". For 5.2 I don't think we should have the following > >>>> since > >>>>>> we don't have any UI for them: > >>>>>>> ** Administration. I don't even know what it means at the global > >>>>>> portal/system level > >>>>>>> ** All documents. Currently we don't have a LT that displays all > >>> docs > >>>>>> from all wikis > >>>>>>> ** Applications Index. I don't see what you would do in this one. > >>>>>> Listing all apps for all wikis for quick navigation? Not sure it's > >>>> needed > >>>>>>> ** Note: Users index should list all global users > >>>>>>> * I don't like very much "Home" as the menu name since that > >>>> represents > >>>>> a > >>>>>> single wiki (the main wiki). We already have a menu entry to > >>> represent > >>>>> the > >>>>>> current wiki. I'd prefer to have a "System" or "Portal" or "Farm" > >> or > >>> …, > >>>>>> i.e. something that represents the whole system and have only > >>>> system-wide > >>>>>> actions in it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> After more thoughts I think it's ok for a first version to have the > >>> new > >>>>>> "Home" menu entry to represent the main wiki. However all subwikis > >>> menu > >>>>>> entries should have the same entries except for "Wiki Index" which > >>>> should > >>>>>> only be in "Home". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In the future though, in the new model, we'll have a notion of > >> System > >>>>>> (farm of wikis) and maybe we'll implement it differently than in a > >>>> wiki. > >>>>>> But we can take care of this at that time… ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right now the more important for me is to agree that we have only 1 > >>>>>> concept: the notion of "Wiki" and to replace the notion of > >>> "Workspace" > >>>>> just > >>>>>> by a checkbox in the wiki creation wizard: > >>>>>> "Allow creating local users" (which is unchecked by default). > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I've created the 'Option D' proposal > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements#HOptionD > >>>>> - used 'subwiki' term instead of 'wiki' > >>>>> - used 'users isolation' checkbox to replace the notion of workspace > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Caty > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Note that we'll also need in 5.3+ a new right IMO: the right of > >>>> creating > >>>>> a > >>>>>> new wiki. For 5.2 we could just have a check in the wiki creation > >>>> wizard > >>>>>> page (for example on the user having Admin rights on the main > >> wiki). > >>> If > >>>>> an > >>>>>> Admin wants to change that to allow everyone to create a wiki he > >>> could > >>>>> edit > >>>>>> that page and change the check. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> WDYT? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>> -Vincent > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> * "Wiki Menu". Should be the same as now + Users Index for > >> listing > >>>> all > >>>>>> local users of the current wiki + Application Index for all apps of > >>> the > >>>>>> current wiki, i.e. all actions that you can do on the current wiki > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * Wiki/Workspace Creation > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovements > >>>>>>>> (please chose between Option A, B or C) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Definitely +1 for B. I really think we need to drop the concept > >> of > >>>>>> workspaces and come back to the concept of wiki/subwiki. It's much > >>>>> simpler > >>>>>> for the user. What we call "workspace" can be seen as a > >> configuration > >>>>> for a > >>>>>> wiki, i.e. the usage of global users only. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>> -Vincent > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>> Caty > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> But this change in how XWiki is perceived has both advantages > >>> and > >>>>>>>>>> disadvantages. On one hand, it clearly shows users that XWiki > >>> is a > >>>>>>>>>> collaborative platform, not just a wiki, so people that need > >>>>>>>>>> collaboration more than just a wiki will be able to see that > >>> XWiki > >>>>>> isn't > >>>>>>>>>> another boring wiki. On the other hand, people that are just > >>>> looking > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>>>> a wiki that's nice to use and "not-ugly", might be put off by > >>> yet > >>>>>>>>>> another layer of complexity, and might drop XWiki from their > >>> list > >>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> candidates. In other words, it alienates even more the kind of > >>>> users > >>>>>>>>>> that already perceive XWiki as hard to use and overly complex. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> So, are we willing to trade one type of users for the other? > >> It > >>>>> would > >>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>> in line with our vision of "enterprise collaboration", but I > >>> still > >>>>>> think > >>>>>>>>>> we shouldn't voluntarily alienate any kind of users. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> An alternative is to wait for a real flavor, and then ask in > >> the > >>>>> first > >>>>>>>>>> step of the distribution manager what kind of usage do we > >> want. > >>> In > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> meantime, we can still polish the pages that will go in the > >>>>>> "workspaces" > >>>>>>>>>> flavor. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> So, -0 for switching to "workspaces only" in 5.2, unless we > >> have > >>>>>> really > >>>>>>>>>> good backwards compatibility and a flavor for a simple wiki > >> for > >>>>>> textual > >>>>>>>>>> collaboration. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I hope the above allays your fears :) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>>>> -Vincent > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
