On Mar 9, 2011, at 04:05 , NoOp wrote:

> Of late there are multiple posts on the users list regarding mail list
> subscribe and unsubscribe issues.
> 
> 
<snip>

> Florian points out an issue with mailman:
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/226
> <quote>
> We use mlmmj for good reasons.
> Mailman has a lot of options and the luxury of a web interface, but it's
> a total mess for moderators. You have one password per list for all
> moderators, and moderation via e-mail is a pain.
> </quote>

mlmmj is no better for moderators.  The choice we have is pass/no pass.  And 
moderation is still via email, and is still a pain.  We have no way of making 
public that a message has been moderated, and/or adding the OPs email address 
to the list of senders so that Reply All will include the OP.  To approve a 
message, instead of clicking on Reply and getting the original subject as 
subject of the reply email, we get up a new message with empty subject, so that 
sending the message is a two-click job instead of a one-click job, since my 
client is set to warn me when I send an email without subject.  Not substantial 
when there are only a couple of messages, but a PITA when there are twenty.

Very occasionally a message arrives which I try to answer directly to the 
sender, and don't pass the message to the list, but I have no easy way to let 
my fellow moderators know, and the chances are that one of them will pass it 
anyway.

When I think moderation, I think of moderation as it applies to a forum, or, 
for that matter, possibly the Nabble interface.  A moderator should be able to 
redirect a message if, for example, a website issue is sent to users, or, more 
commonly, users and discuss are confused, but we can't do that.  Naturally we'd 
have to let the OP know in such a case, but that would be part of the job.
> 
> But I wonder if the issue with mailman (moderator passwords) is actually
> the case:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-admin.pdf
> 
> I'm not versed on mailman, so I don't know the answer. However, the
> current issue of mail list subscribers not being able to
> subscribe/unsubscribe/modify user settings/etc in mlmmj as they can in
> mailman is an issue. And it will likely be more of an issue as the
> number of subscribers to the list(s) grow.

+10
> 
> Perhaps Florian et al can explain just how TDF plan to implement the
> lists, now and in the future? Some questions:
> 
> 1. Why are unsubscribed posts even allowed? It would seem that folks
> would have learned from the OOo list history.

Personally I don't have much of an issue with this.  It's for their sakes that 
we have moderators.  A new user is likely to have a question or two when 
something doesn't work quite the same way it does in MS Word, for example, but 
for the most part can make his/her own way.  And there is a resistance to 
giving one's email address to everybody and his brother, so the ability to send 
one or two messages to a list and watch for responses on a web interface is 
just what they need.  Then they go away, and never get the flood of mail 
messages they don't want, and additionally have no problem unsubscribing.  
Subscribing with the no-mail option is not really an option here since they 
think they need the mail in order to get their reply.

***** From this point of view alone, a mailing list with ability to send a 
message without signing up has the edge over a forum.*****  In every other 
respect mailing lists are so twentieth century.

> 
> 2. Why are multiple moderators necessary? If it's to get some poor soul
> to sort & reject spam, then there are automated tools to do that instead.

Actually, sorting spam is a very minor part of the job, at least up to now, so 
the automated tools do their job.  But my subjective impression is that spam is 
beginning, slowly, to increase.  To my way of thinking - again from the forum 
world - the principal job of a moderator is to try and maintain a civilised 
intercourse between participants, and either warn or shut off uncivil ones.  To 
warn we don't have to be moderators, and we can't shut off uncivil ones, so no 
advantage here.  Now if mlmmj had a membership form that was read-only, and we 
moderators could impose it on a member for a period...

> 
> 3. Why are we getting posts on the user & other lists using
> Mlmmj — Mailing List Management Made Joyful:
> http://mlmmj.org/
> that the user can't unsubscribe, or can't set nomail?

Now THAT is a serious problem.  I agree with NoOp that the trickle of 
help-me-unsubscribe messages is beginning to resemble the Queensland floods.

> 
> 4. Why is it necesary to send an email for unsubscribe instructions?

Right on!

<snip>
> 
> Let's please discuss & nip this issue in the bud now/early before the
> lists/users grow & can no longer be managed properly.

//James
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