All of this discussion makes me know more than ever that we need a
governing board. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. In order to
make decisions a board should be elected by the community and for the
community. From the governing board, we should be able to add working
groups/projects.
All in favor of nominating and electing a governing board?
lk
On 11/29/11 4:18 AM, DavidHalko wrote:
Hi Michael W,
I appreciate your kind and sensible words.
You left some numbered questions& comments. I hoped to share a bit.
Another distribution? See below
(3) Another Name? No... Brand it OI for short. OI is GREAT.
(7) Vote on a userland? Democracy is 2 wolves& a sheep voting on dinner. I
don't know if that is the right thing to do.
Am I the only one who sees what has happened over the past 25 years between
Solaris& GNU& Linux?
(4) userland rant coming, take out your knives and guns!
GNU userland is basically Linux, because GNU never finished a real kernel, and
Linux never had a real UserLand. It was 2 half successful projects merged
together, a marriage of convenience but never a true union.
The founders of nexenta believed and still believe that we should make
the core platform features easier to use for linux users. That was why
they added to debian userland in the first place to their distro. I
think it is a good idea for this to continue. There is every indication
that stormos will continue to do this.
SVR4 userland was only ever partially implemented in Solaris, two successful
products, each killing off each others most successful features over time.
I think there just needs to be an effort to make SVR4 userland what it used to
be in other defunct SVRx worlds - easy to use: text, X, and then extended to
HTTP interface. GNU can come along for the ride!
I still can't believe that FMLI was killed when other SVR4 systems were able to
do all system admin work, including: user admin, group admin, printer admin,
packaging, network configuration, os upgrade, running user applications, and
provide extensibility for data centers to build their own menu based
automations. SVRx leveraged the same FMLI language to deliver everything over
X (XFMLI) with no code changes. It should have been wrapped in HTML/JavaScript
instead of killed (and not replaced with something functionally equivalent.)
As soon as Sun had something good, they killed it for a worse user experience.
Sunview was nice and fast - it made them a market leader with easy
administration. DisplayPostscript brought desktop publishing, then went the way
of the dinosaur. OpenWindows was slower, but not ad slow ad what was to come.
FMLI arrived, could build menuing interfaces for user and admin communities.
OpenStep was beautiful, but never delivered. Motif was a pig when CDE wad
introduced. The admintool became more crippled. At least CDE came with
windowing sh for building GUI/scripting interfaces, even though xfmli was never
ported. Gnome was bigger/slower yet with virtually no simple way to
administer/customize it. FMLI and windowing shells got killed with nothing to
replace them. User communities, what were they? Once again, more difficult to
manage at every step, rip out what worked well, and leave nothing to replace it.
You are absolutely correct.
Workstations were a breeze to set up. Pull a box off the loading dock, copy
down the MAC, copy it into a config file, roll the workstation onto a desk,
boot it up. Zones and workstations should have been the same abstraction
instead of killing diskless workstations and later killing sparse zones. The
workstation handling made Sun market leader, then they stopped advancing
state-of-the-art and killed it.
Svr4 packaging was awesome. Packages were quick to build via a script. could be
verified, packages already installed could be verified in case of tampering, it
could be network based with nfs, even worked with zones automatically (made my
life easier with a dozen zones per host machine!) Packages could be made
architecture an os aware (my packages worked across SPARC Solaris and Intel
non-Solaris OS's seamlessly, no need to have multiple packages.) Was it
perfect? No, but could have been extended via http with little effort, buy it
was killed.
What about sar? It was awesome. Someone decided to make the "-u" options basically
useless recently by making a column show bogus data. I used to pop graphs out in a one-liner using
xterm with tek emulation with sag. Oh, someone decided to kill fast out of the box performance
graphing and not replace it. That was ok because "sar -u" gave a bogus column anyway,
right?
If we are going to get another distribution, how about one based upon Illumos
that works on SPARC III, IIIi, IV, IV+ out of the box? If not, don't bother.
If we are getting another distribution, how about one that works in 128mb and
can be used with embedded systems with standard text menus over a terminal over
X console via ssh? Throw in a light and easily customizable window manager like
OLVWM? How about make vnc work out of the box with the start of a service? We
want a tight distribution to do things with. If not, don't bother making
another distribution.
Some claim they want a server OS? Do it right. Make the TK SNMP MIB browser shipped
with the OS actually work (what a concept) and monitor local& remote systems, use
RMON& DISMAN for all NET-SNMP alerts and data gathering, use SNMP TrapD to syslog
out-of-the-box for system health, snmp-to-dtrace interface, sar-to-snmp interface,
zpool-to-snmp interface, etc.) Make a real server OS with managability light years
ahead using incremental improvement instead of making a Linux look-alike (which feels
10 years older with missing features, that are being killed off of Solaris.) Don't
claim to want to be a server OS without decent SNMP, if DTrace is really that good,
gateway it, and make sure the TK based X MIB browser can graph it all - otherwise,
don't bother with another server distribution.
If we want a real user workstation distribution, give an option like olvwm so
hundreds of users can easily be administered centrally and hundreds of users can
painlessly be running virtual desktops on a single socket. Make network boots that
look like sparse zones. Provide talk, wall, email, nntp news, smtp, finger, ruptime
on the servers and remote workstations (that should boot off the server and look
just like a zone.) Throw in blogs& wiki for fun. Ensure there are X and Http
interfaces for everything. Other WM's should install through package management and
work without configuration. Web browser should auto-update. PDF and Flash should
auto-update. Add a multi-platform IM tool. If not, don't bother with another
desktop distribution.
If a feature was fast& easy to use, it was killed. I am tired of seeing people
kill a good thing, reinventing the wheel, just to give the community less, a little
slower, but looking more modern.
If we want really modern user interface, resurrect Looking Glass. How about
OpenStep, to draw some Apple programmers working on top of Darwin? One of the
OpenMotif libraries, for compatibility? How about adding OpenLook back in
there, for a fast/clean window manager? I know, Unicode is a problem, but not
in the Open Source world - deploy what we have, let the community choose, give
the community time to fix it.
Invest time into OpenIndiana and put back some of the old dead stuff that made
SVR4 userland superior to GNU userland... Then take standard SVR4 userland
stuff and extend it, that code is static and we have no fear of merging it
back. Keep the GNU userland that comes from Solaris, let Oracle upgrade it. If
the don't release the code, we have options, but actively developed code that
overlaps with Solaris should be the last things we touch.
Yes, but we need the community to drive and create these changes.
There are several high priority places to target:
- SPARC, for disaffected development users and cheap equipment which will be
rolling out of data centers, as new equipment is rolled in, OI has an
opportunity to make a foothold into these datacenters, as long as old equipment
is there and we retain compatibility.
- User Friendly Administration, to bring in those new users. Linux did it with
a vastly less friendly system from original SunView or SVR3/4 (olwm, cde,
fmli/xfmli.)
- User Friendly GUI, to make it easy to use& customize, not fancy, consider
old hardware off eBay, must do basics out-of-the-box like an Apple, as easy to
maintain as an Apple. Without Jobs, this arena should be targeted, this is the
future. If it can not be managed easily, it should be an add-on, not default. Users
should be able to adjust their monitor settings, right? (I do some of that with vnc
terminal servers and scripts, today.)
- Embedded and appliance, gotta be easier to manage out of the box than other
systems (snmp, telnet, ssh. X, http)... Build every interface as an abstraction
so no work must be duplicated. This is our bread-and-butter now. This pays the
bills. We should be BETTER than EVERYONE in appliances if we want to survive.
OI should become the choice OS for embedded appliances.
- Cloud, this is medium future. Joyent is doing awesome. Desktop virtualization
should be done like no one is doing today, to make a splash in the trade rags. What
about booting OI off a cloud and resurrecting cachefs, make the desktop look like a
zone? Leverage free services to host pieces? Use a USB stick to make a dataless
workstation? Checksums with zfs should make an awesome back end store with very
little front end effort. Zfs compression should make an awesome mechanism to
compress data between the client& the cloud. OI should become the choice OS
for clouds and virtualized desktops, based on our history.
- Virtualization, host other architectures in zones, don't have to do it fast, just
do it. Intel, SPARC, ARM, POWER. Base it on KVM. A zone should be able to host any
architecture OI instance on any platform. Software should work everywhere, speed
should be the only variable. Old Sun,& Mac's should be our friends. Old
linksys should be our target. Someday, ARM will be in the cloud, OI should be their
first choice - let then develop in a zone, then let them run Intel in a zone.
- clustered file system, this Is killing Solaris. I needed one for years. At
the very least, we need some kind of file replication. Will Lustre ever be
available for OI? Will our changes be too much to make it incompatible when it
arrives?
We have to build on what we have done well (we have the chance to be the new
SVRx), stop scrapping stuff which works (give ISV's another place to make their
goods available, before the port to Solaris 11 is done), stop replacing with
less functional new stuff, stop making new distributions, stop renaming stuff
(no one knew what Sun sold because they renamed it every year) - we have to
move forward from where we are. Fujitsu should be building SPARC clusters on OI
and not Linux!!!!!
I lived this back in the 1980's in another real-time community, when I did some
assembly kernel work, this is giving me a nightmare just thinking about it.
This is not rocket science, much of it can be done in awk or a cron job. Most
of it can be directed and libraried to different higher level contributors (not
kernel coders.) I am willing to help.
I hope this gives people a better feel for where some of us come from. We just want
our 25 year old scripts, books with notes, subroutine libraries, and home-made
tools to work. We want more features - not just rip& [almost] replace
approximately every 6 years.
Dave
http://netmgt.blogspot.com/
PS the (5) "Crown Jewels" of Solaris are of little value when we don't see the benefits
through standard management interfaces (SNMP for zfs, DTrace, zones, crossbow, netfilter, etc.) and
standard user interfaces (syslog viewer, TK snmp grapher, TK snmp walker, user programmable Alerts
from syslog, users in a zone "talking" to another zone, etc.) OI should be able to be
configured through SNMP as well as configure others OI systems through SNMP. A true Internet Cloud
OS as well as Desktop.
Sent from my iPhone
I can't believe you sent this long email from your phone... amazing!
On Nov 28, 2011, at 2:16 AM, Michael Widmann<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi
Well spoken everyone - one is missing that doesn't declare himself and should
please said some thing on this : Garret ....
1.) Garret in front of the curtain please
2.) Would it be frank to ask - could we donate for OpenIndiana? and if so
where - and what do donate?
3.) Question: Is there a real problem with the name - or only this IPS / SRV4
Package hating generation conflict?
4.) UserLand discussions are slightly boring (IMHO) - cause the OpenSolaris /
OpenIndiana Userland I'm personally used too not really interested in debian
UserLand or anything else...
5.) What really matters: ZFS / DTrace / KVM / Zones / Crossbow - could we all work
together to make a progress their - and maybe starting to innovate with an "open
board"
6.) Every Distro has it's beautiful side - could we hammer out (for people not
knowing one of this either) which one is best for what case? (making a list
together where each is aimed to be installed / used)
7.) Let the community vote for the userland and the winner should help the
others to integrate .... (if it is illumnos / debian userland - please help OI
to integrate)
8.) thanks to everyone who does a great job - on the core / the distribution /
the integration of new things (nexenta - illumnos / alasdair - openindiana /
joyent team - kvm / dtrace and tons of updates and fixes)
Michael
2011/11/28 Alexander<[email protected]>
Well said. Just let's work together, I do not understand why the name of the
distribution can be an obstacle. I do not see any threat to OI, moreover, I
think working together on the integration of new packages and the use of one
illumos-userland will helps everyone. Let's just work, as Bryan said.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 28, 2011, at 1:43 AM, Bryan Cantrill<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Michael Widmann<[email protected]>
wrote:
Any comments on this joyents and nextentas?
First, Joyent, Delphix, Nexenta and every other member of the illumos community
contributes to illumos -- to the core operating system -- which in turn
benefits everyone (OpenIndiana included). So we have in fact helped
OpenIndiana (most significantly with our KVM port to illumos, which OpenIndiana
included in its oi_151a release) -- and we will continue to do so.
That said, I think it's important that we as a community recognize that what
binds us is core OS technologies (ZFS, Zones, Crossbow, DTrace, KVM, etc.), and
not how those technologies are packaged and distributed. A central aspect of
the failing of OpenSolaris (in my opinion) was that we collectively (and Sun in
particular) insisted on there being only One True Path for the entire system.
At its best, this ethos manifested itself as endless discussions on governance
and voting and constitutions -- and at its worse led to arguments, discord,
politicking and fracture.
But with illumos, we have a rebirth: we have not only fresh blood in terms of
technologists, but also (I would like to think) more tolerance around those
elements that are ancillary to those core technologies. As such, several
distributions have flowered that would have not been possible in the shadow of
OpenSolaris -- and I expect more to come. This is _healthy_ as it means that
more people (not fewer) will be exposed to our core values as new distributions
arise to fill new niches. As a community moving forward, we need to stay
focussed on the values that bind us -- and that means leading with the
technology, not pre-announcements or rhetoric or endless discussion. To that
end, I would point to the illumos hackathon as a shining example of what we can
and should be doing: similarly minded people coming together to advance the
state of the art in operating systems!
With that, I would like to ask that we cease the friendly fire and get back to
work. Speaking personally, I am going to be spending the afternoon finishing
up the ::scalehrtime dcmd that we found so invaluable on a nasty KVM problem
this past week (patch to come on that one), and adding some code to the panic
path that would make a similar problem slightly easier to debug -- work that I
believe to be examples (if extraordinarily small ones) of the values that bind
our community...
- Bryan
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